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Gregg_Seipp

C210 - Does a real 210 land like this?

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So, I've been looking at the Carenado Centurion forever as a replacement for my old C182Q. Today I got it and took it up around the pattern. Flies nice (tho...I did tweak the elevator per another thread...seemed 'woh' to me...not sure if a real 210 has an elevator like that. (Shouldn't matter to the discussion since all I really did was increase the amount of travel on my CH yoke a bit.)

 

So, everything is good but, the one thing I have found difficult is putting it down on the mains first. Not sure why, but it seems to want to land on all three wheels at the same moment. Haven't got the stall warning yet pulling back (and maybe that's part of the trick?) but it just seems to want to land flat. Never had that kind of trouble with any other airplane. Anybody else notice that? Is that how a real 210 lands? What do you do to get a good 'main wheels first' landing? I'm flying final at 75KIAS with full flaps,...about 14 on manifold pressure(?) Maybe I'm just being a chicken and need to go ahead and pull the nose up more. Dunno and I'm looking for some experienced advice.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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yeah it is a bit of a squirly one on landing.. I know what you mean.. I have found out that it is very sensitive in the flair.. I have FSUIPC and have changed the slope in the elevator setting to -10 or something like that and I like it a whole lot better .. I haven't flown that one in quite a while - I have to say.


Ciao!

 

 

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I've spent many good hours flying this plane - it was my first payware plane when I started flying FSX after a long time away from any sim attempts and I kinda wrote off earlier difficulties to physical control issues (yoke calibration and so forth) - but in retrospect I don't thing there's any question that the 210's flight model isn't quite as good as the Bernt Stolle models I have that came after (A36, P46T, C90, 337), or the updates that he did on other earlier Carenados (at least the one I have, the V35). At one point, Bernt had talked about doing a reworked 210, but interest kinda fizzled.

 

I haven't flown this plane much lately but took it out for a couple of trips around "the patch" this evening just to refresh my memory and to compare with some of the planes I'm flying a lot these days. I'd forgotten how touchy it is in the pattern, with pretty dramatic (and to my mind exagerated) pitch changes on flap extension and, yes, it's difficult to hold off the nose in the flair with a rather nose down attitude even with power off and a modest descent rate. I've got a fair bit of Cessna time, including Cessna retractables but no 210 time so I can't say for sure, but it doesn't feel quite right to me. I was able to hold the nose wheel off on touchdown on my second and better attempt maintaining close to stall speed over the fence but it still didn't feel good. The only change I've made is to elevator trim, but after this last flight I may play around a bit more there.

 

Just some quick thoughts after revisiting the plane...

 

Scott

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I finally did get a mains first flare this morning...unbelievable. It took me about 15 attempts. I kept exaggerating the nose up until I did a landing with 9 degrees nose up. Externally, the tail is fairly close to the ground...3-4 inches I'd say. Airspeed indicator was not smooth...notching down 1-2 knots at a time until touchdown at 56 KIAS. The far end of the runway was not visible, you had to watch out the side of the aircraft.

 

I also did a 20 degrees flaps and a no flaps and made it happen...again...takes a LOT of nose up.

 

With that much nose up you don't have much time, the aircraft comes down pretty quick.

 

Now, look at this nose wheel failure video. The pilots can clearly see down the runway and are in a beautiful flair...tail a good foot off the ground. Very, very different than what I'm seeing.

 

 

I'd really like to hear what real world pilots think about this.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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Keep in mind I have zero RW time in this airplane so this is all completely anecdotal...I don't know how a real one flies. My realism settings are max. This plane flies pretty much like a C182 except on landing...it's another world there.

 

I studied the vid above and it looks to me like they only have flaps 10 set which would probably make their their speed on landing higher, eyepoint worse and their flare a bit more nose high since they would be using the wing to create the drag the flaps usually do. Anyway, it's the only thing real world I got so whatever. It's my guide.

 

I set it up on a mile final in calm wind and began to tinker. The best I could come up with still feels like a bit of a carrier landing but it's better. Set up on the VASI's (or where you think the picture looks right.) Power set to about MP 16. Fly down to the runway at 75KIAS. After you cross the threshold (or about normal TCH) begin reducing power to MP 11-12. Level off for the flair but DON'T cut power. Keep holding the nose up and stay close to the runway. It will want to float but at least you won't slam it in and you'll get mains down first.

 

Word of warning: published stall speed is 61 knots but it starts to fall out of the sky at 62 even in ground effect and with the extra power. You won't get a stall horn...it's just...whince, wham! I think MP 11 worked a tad better than 12 in terms of floating. If you're speed is above 62 you can hold the nose up while you're rolling on the mains. I had to up the eyepoint an inch or two as well to try to mimic what I 'felt' the eyepoint was in the video...with that height I lost sight of the end of the runway momentarily near touchdown (as I think, maybe, they did).

 

I tried putting more weight in the back as well but didn't see that much difference.

 

One more note: I put on a 8 knot component crosswind and bumped power up to 13 mp and it was pretty much perfect.

 

Maybe someday a RW pilot will see this thread and straighten me out (please) but that's the best I could come up with.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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OK a little RW stuff - 210's are fast and sensitive. They are a GA workhorse and should be loaded carefully from front to rear to max contra fuel required - so as close to MTOW as you can get before you leave. Keep the pattern speed high (100-110 KIAS) for most standard runways, no more than Flap 2 on final, trim for attitude and keep the MPa as low as you can to maintain 500 fps descent and 90 KIAS over the fence. Commence the flare after easing MPa and juggle it easily for smooth main gear contact. Very touchy in cross winds and turbulence.

 

Once you get the bigger runways under your belt go for STOLs but remember FLAP 3 will make you float and you have to work hard with trim and MPa to combat that.

 

Practice and good luck, many good long hour pilots still have "fun" with a 210. (By the way I find the Carenado FDE quite realistic and good "fun").

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Ok...thanks for the RW advice. Tried this out this morning. It's fairly easy to get the mains down a moment or two before the nose. The smoothest I could get was to let airspeed bleed off to 70 and then begin to pull the nose up and try to get it down before 62. Tried the same thing with flaps 30, holding the power in until very close and using the 70 knots as my guide. The trick seems to be to get it on the ground before 62...add some power if needed.

 

It's so similar to the 182 when the gear is down that it's a breeze to fly except on the landing. The 182 just settles down with no mental effort required...like the 172, it's pretty automatic. The 210, for me at least, requires real concentration and true attention to speed to do a mains landing without slamming the pavement (62). I found the transition from 172 to 182 almost nothing (real world...though, in all fairness, I had a flight instructor with me on both of those aircraft so I had some guidance). Carenado doesn't give any guidance so you're basically on your own walking out to an airplane you just bought alone. I don't see what's so hard about putting down what you just did in a PDF. Their lack of guidance is a sore spot with me.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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That's it, your getting the feel for it mate :good: Don't worry too much about the numbers, 210's are all about power and feel, unlike their smaller siblings (except the 185 which also needs that special touch).

 

Cross winds are always "fun" in a 210 too B)

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Guest BeaverDriver

Gregg: No, the 210 is lunched when it comes to landings. There's no way you should require as much nose up in the flare as you do. It is all but impossible to get a landing on the mains only and if you were in a bad (very strong) wind and didn't want a full stall landing, you'd be in trouble. It is as though the oleo strut in the nosewheel has been hyper extended. RW I've never flown a Cessna that required anything close to this attitude on landing (and I've flown most of the Cessna singles, many of them commercially). I wrote Carenado way back, but typically there was "no response". Also the flaps at 30 are waaay too effective. This reminds me more of the 185 with 40 degrees of flaps (which we almost never used unless it was a very tight runway or lake). Twenty degrees in this machine is more like 30 degrees (max flap on the 210) RW.

 

Unfortunately I've stopped flying it because of the landing attitude. The flaps I fixed, but there's zip you can do about the landing attitude. Just takes the fun out of it when you know in your mind that it's a matter of time before you collapse a nosewheel (or would if it were RW). Sorry for the bad news.

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Well...truthfully, I contacted Carenado and asked them to trade it for the C337, which they *graciously* did. I did explain the problems I was having. I *hated* doing it...I *never* want to give up on an airplane but, whether it was the aircraft or just me, it was an issue. I did work out a procedure by landing the airplane over and over again but it didn't feel right and didn't seem to mesh with the little evidence I could find on videos (and it ain't much) and the RW checklist. Fact is, if I was a prospective buyer of a C210 and it required that kind of handling, I wouldn't own it. On the other hand, It did teach me a great deal about my flying while I was trying to sort it out...much more careful precision. I've translated that to my skill with other aircraft.

 

The C337 is, in terms of landing, the exact opposite. You can be utterly sloppy in a fairly broad range of airspeeds and still get a good flare and touchdown...settles to the runway onto the mains with no issue whatsoever. In fact, it feels so real it's eerie...like the first time I was in a C182 RW...a bit lazier on the correcting turns, slower to give up airspeed. I remember looking over for my checkride instructor and thinking how odd it was that I wasn't on one.

 

If they do find out there is any issue with the C210 on landing and they patch it I'll be in line to buy it again. It was, apart from handling on the flare, everything I wanted in an instrument trainer. But, I don't want them to patch it to make it simpler. If it's right, leave it. If it's wrong, fix it. I'm in no position to say having never been in one before.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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Guest BeaverDriver

No, it's wrong. I have landed RW aircraft with an over filled oleo and even then I never touched down nose-wheel first and I had nowhere near the nose up attitude in those as I required to get the 210 to land on all 3 gears at once. Good decision on your part (although there are a "few" things in the 337 that are "incorrect" as well, but they aren't to do with dynamics), but it is too bad. It does spoil an otherwise pretty good airplane and one I really wanted for a long time in FSX. Unfortunately, Carenado doesn't patch their stuff after about the 2nd or 3rd week following release as a rule. Once we've finished beta testing the aircraft, he makes the fixes he wants to, then moves on. He might do the odd other thing if it's simple and fast, but typically once he's moved on to the next model in production, he doesn't come back to the last one. That's unfortunate and has left a trail of "broken airplanes" in his wake, often with really stupid, little mistakes that would take 10 minutes to fix. For more major things like bad FDE's (pre-Bernt), customers stepped in and fixed the machine fortunately. But, I can't criticize as I've "moved on" as well to other developers (as you know ;). Such is life :).

 

Good luck with the 337.

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nowhere near the nose up attitude

 

I fully agree! It's been about 15 years since, but i occupied the right seat as a pax only for several hops from San Diego to Camarillo and back in the mid-1990s and from that experience I agree with your assessment. I recall the attitude was closely consistent with my own 182(RG) experience.


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I recall the attitude was closely consistent with my own 182(RG) experience.

 

That is exactly what I have been reading from real world pilots online.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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210 is in the hangar for me as well. I had hoped Bernt would work his FDE magic on this one as well, but it was not meant to be


Glenn

Ryzen 3700X, X570 Pro Wifi, 32GB 3600mhz RAM, Nvidia Titan Xp "Galactic Empire", RM750x PSU, H700 case, 2x NVMe M2 SSD, 1x SATA SSD

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Guest BeaverDriver

Got to this a little late as I'm not flying Carenado machines now, but unfortunately the attitude is in the model, not the dynamics. It's how it sits on the ground that is the issue - it's too nose high. You can get the right attitude ok, but with how it's modeled, you end up touching down on all 3 wheels at once (if you're lucky and don't end up touching down on the nosewheel first!). You can adjust the contact points, but then you'll have the nosewheel sunk into the ground by a foot or so, so that doesn't help. Too bad. This was probably my most anticipated airplane next to the King Air. Neither are still on my system.

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