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Tom Allensworth

Lockheed Martin Issues Statement

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Lockheed today issued a statement to AVSIM regarding P3D which we think all simmers will find interesting. You can find the article on the front page.

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Why can't they answer questions in a direct and clear manner? They *still* have left a clear gray area with their ambiguous answers left for interpretation.

 

I personally find it frustrating as I am still left in a state of confusion...

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Lockheed today issued a statement to AVSIM regarding P3D which we think all simmers will find interesting. You can find the article on the front page.

 

What?...this

 

 

....looked at the front page and only saw the below:

 

 

"The simulation furthers development of Microsoft® ESP™ while maintaining compatibility with Microsoft Flight Simulator X, allowing many thousands of add-ons to be used within Prepar3D."

 

 

Which does allude to a passing compatibility mission...Is that the statement?

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Academic license "(students in elementary, middle, high school or pursuing a bachelor’s degree)"

 

But not pursuing an Associate, Master or PHD. What about preschool? That sounds like a govt...................... hey wait a minute. I get it:)

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Let's hope AVSIM asks and keeps asking until it gets an answer "which EULA permits P3D to be used by individuals for personal/consumer entertainment ?"

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Let's hope AVSIM asks and keeps asking until it gets an answer "which EULA permits P3D to be used by individuals for personal/consumer entertainment ?"

 

I think if you read their statement you will see that they have no intention of allowing prepa3d to be used for entetainment or by hobbyists

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I think if you read their statement you will see that they have no intention of allowing prepa3d to be used for entetainment or by hobbyists

 

I did read it and it's ambivalent,The answer to LM's own question is that it can be used for entertainment - that's what many posters here are doing!

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I think if you read their statement you will see that they have no intention of allowing prepa3d to be used for entetainment or by hobbyists

 

Yup, that's clear to me and frankly that's their right to persue a business model that caters to commercial and military training purposes. As others have also commented the agreement with MS prohibits licensing for the entertainment community. Whatever the case, how LM chooses to market their product is up to them within the constraints that have been set and perhaps the market they are aiming at is exactly what they want to do anyway. We can whine and cry all we want (and perhaps that's an argument not to go after the hobbyist/entertainment user) but well, that's about all we can do about it or just move on and enjoy what we have.

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I did read it and it's ambivalent,The answer to LM's own question is that it can be used for entertainment - that's what many posters here are doing!

 

Quote from the article...

 

"Can Prepar3D be used for entertainment?

Our end-user license agreement explains that Prepar3D can be used for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment. Lockheed Martin does not offer Prepar3D for entertainment, and we have no plans to enter the entertainment space. Our focus is on learning and training." End of quote.

 

You guys can turn it around the way you want it but it is crystal clear to me that their license is not for entertainment as stated by LM themself (no confusion here Ben), and because many posters here started using P3D for entertainment several months ago is in no way grandfather in because of it.

 

To whom does not understand that please see picture below...

 

terapia-fobia.jpg

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agreed, it's time to let go of any future hopes on that platform and simply move on with something else now. Whining, crying and moaning is for children. Seems as though all along they've been charging the retail end-user's to beta test for them. I think it's about time that the retail end user's start showing their appreciation for that. Turn around, and don't ever look back...and please stop the media attention.

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  • Students – We launched an academic license recently at a reduced price for educational purposes at the undergraduate college level and below (students in elementary, middle, high school or pursuing a bachelor’s degree). This is an extension of our philanthropic support for STEM education to engage the next generation of technologists and engineers.

  • This is where the aswer lies.
    LM manouvered themselves in a strange position.
    Due to their agreement with Microsoft the are not entiteled to sell the product for entertainment.
     
    BUT reading the quote above , its available for students on the elementary school ( wich are actually kids)
    So if daddy buys the game for his son or daughter , grandschild whatever for "educational-purposes" there is no obstacle.
    Daddy installs the game , enhenches it with add-ons and the child can start its learning process.
    I do not think LM does mind ......daddy educates himself a bit when the kids got to bed.
    Parents always are entiteld to read and test educational stuff they buy for their children.
    If we have children in the "kindergarten" we will have to wait till they enter elementary school..... whahahaha.
     
    We should STOP asking LM to say things they are not allowed to.

  • They give us a wide variety of ways to get it.
    Just play the game with them their way.
     
    How long that wil go without problems depends on MIcrosoft.
    Personally I do not expect any action from that side .
  • Thats guessing I realise , the rest is cristal clear.

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Let's hope AVSIM asks and keeps asking until it gets an answer "which EULA permits P3D to be used by individuals for personal/consumer entertainment ?"

 

The statement they just made was crystal clear about that...

 

"None of them."

 

Lockheed Martin does not offer Prepar3D for entertainment, and we have no plans to enter the entertainment space.

 

They can't make it any more explicit than spelling it out they way they did. Anyone still seeing ambiguity is looking for ambiguity.

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They have made it clear to me by being unclear. I don't see how this can be confused.

 

They are allowing users to buy this for a certain use. That use is obviously going to be violated as using addons like scenery is not a necessity for learning aircraft and aircraft systems.

 

The program for others will be pulled just as soon as someone sees the revenue that is going to be generated by this. That is a no brainier. As soon as micro money sees that there is serious money being made off one of its dead cousins, it will move in a make waves.

 

For those with the money, I guess it wouldn't hurt to enjoy it while it lasts but just don't get too attached to it. You have no right legally to be using it and that is the honest truth. True, some here wag use it the way it is licensed, but most do not and will not.

 

It is worded in a way that is clear to understand that this will end just as soon as it started. That is why I have not and won't make the switch. It is not for us and we went into it knowing that. Eventually the owner will terminate the lease agreement want his house back.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Making a product legally available for six year old kids for educational purposes is just a way to excape form the agreement with Microsoft.

Its very unrealistic to think a product can be placed on the marked with the restriction of being used by kids and for education only.

 

Assuming the product will become profitable for LM is not realistic.

They did not buy MSFS for that purpose and the product being profitable or not is of no interest for LM.

The product being still populair in sim-world is only an unexpected side effect.

They really want us to benefit the product they only are restricted by their agreement with Microsoft , so they create some kind of legal-escape. (as I said I am confident Microsoft will hush)

We must not be so naive thinking Microsoft does not monitor this all from the start and they did`nt do a thing.

Most likely they will read this topic too

 

Let me give an example.

I am not permitted to sell parfumes nevertheless I made a very attractive fragrance.

As I am allowed to sell "things to get rid of fleas" I bring my product on the market that way.

The result will be , people ( the ones who know only naturally) buying the stuff and use it as a parfume.

 

LM wants us (better said allows us) to buy it , they only are not allowed to say so.

So they offer us the product for educational purposes only.

Using MSFS for may years , I realise my knowledge of aviation improved year by year.

In other words I have been educating myself and had fun the same time.

 

Pressing LM to say things they are not allowed to say, doesn`t help.

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As someone posted above, these speculations and uninformed interpretations do absolutely nothing to forward the progress of P3D. There is no point in going over language that is designed by corporate lawyers who know more than anybody here. We do not have a copy of the agreement either so that speculation is also silly.

 

Trying to force Lockheed Martin to issue a clarification is sheer folly. That would be the opposite of what any lawyer would tell them to do. There is no need for clarification. It is what it is and all the messages here will never change it, nor should they.

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Hi, it's a good clear statement by LM. I'm suprised by all the negative statements about it.

 

If you're a serious simulation user looking for a program to help you learn about aviation, you're OK to use the professional or academic versions (depending on your educational status).

 

If you're looking for a plane game that you can use purely for fun - then (as per the EULA) this is not for you, and will not be in the future either.

 

I'm not a lawyer - but I am an academic who researches simulation as my day job. My opinion is that many Avsim users - at least those at the serious end of the spectrum - entirely qualify to use this.

 

The professional simulation that I do is certainly entertaining at times - this in itself does not make it a 'game' as we are actively using it to learn and improve skills.

 

 

 

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Lockheed Martin is in the business of selling $100 million+ fighter jets, not of selling entertainment software. They might not mind simmers using P3D, but to say that they 'want' simmers to buy it is a bit silly. P3D is a sideline to their main business. Even if 1 million people were to buy the academic license for P3D, that would bring in less money than selling just 1 JSF.

If you use P3D and enjoy it, more power to you, but don't expect LM to care about the consumer market.

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Quote from PMDG,

 

" Without taking a step to enter the retail entertainment simulator market, Lockheed Martin has (in the opinion of PMDG and our counsel) left the door open so that they could, at any time change direction and enforce the terms of the EULA on Prepar3d thus requiring all Prepar3d users to prove compliance with their EULA." end of quote

 

Don't you think PMDG know what they are talking about or do you think they are just kidding around?

 

You still don't get it? Please refer to the picture in post # 9

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Being a kid just entering the elementary, is enough to be entiteld to use the program.

Every father is eager to help the kid with the complex simulator.

As we cannot expect a kid in that age to handle the sim without help, grown ups are allowed to give a helping hand after becoming familiar with the sim themselves naturally.

 

Educating for fun is not allowed , having fun in educating is OK.

Its just a question of words.

 

Quiet simple.

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Quote from PMDG,

 

" Without taking a step to enter the retail entertainment simulator market, Lockheed Martin has (in the opinion of PMDG and our counsel) left the door open so that they could, at any time change direction and enforce the terms of the EULA on Prepar3d thus requiring all Prepar3d users to prove compliance with their EULA." end of quote

 

Don't you think PMDG know what they are talking about or do you think they are just kidding around?

 

You still don't get it? Please refer to the picture in post # 9

 

I dont think it matters.

 

Most products are currently comptaible with both FSX and P3D.

 

If for some reason, LM suddenly decide to go crazy and pull out of offering P3D to anyone other than commercial and defence contractors, you could simply go back to using the addons in FSX.

 

Now, this may change when P3D v2 comes out with the DX11 support etc.

 

As it stands though that is my risk to take in terms of money spent. I dont need PMDG deciding if my investment is 'safe' or not.

 

Besides, the funny thing here is that I can easily fit into the PRO EULA terms anyway, so zero need for any concern. It doesn't mean I will use P3D for anything different than I currently do with FSX though...........

 

LM have never and will never come out and say this is a home entertainment retail product.

 

Instead they have given us the option of reading between the lines and a "ask no questions" policy on installs of P3D, the next gen of FS that we have all craved and wished for.

 

Instead of embracing this fantastic opportunity as aviation simulation enthusiasts, we have descended into endless bickering over EULA's and made ourselves look like the forum dwellers on game message boards like 'Modern Warfare' etc, the very same market segment that LM is so keen to avoid.

 

So sad..............

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Academic license "(students in elementary, middle, high school or pursuing a bachelor’s degree)"

 

But not pursuing an Associate,

 

Just for the sake of clarity, an Associate degree is lower level than a bachelor's degree, so it falls within the scope of eligibility... B)

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I can honestly say that every time I use my simulator, I learn from it all the time. It is an educational tool. It also is fun and entertaining. It's like Sweet and Sour sauce (both sweet, and sour at the same time, gee, what a novel thought!). Despite the opinions of some, folks can use a learning tool and have fun, so try to relax and quit trying to categorize how a learning tool should work.

 

This has gotten ridiculous. If you want to use it, then use it as a learning tool to understand more about how the world of aviation works while using Prepar3d. If you don't see flight simulation via Prepar3d as a learning tool, then dont use it. Quit bickering back and forth and acting like LM couldn't possibly understand how all this works. Tom Allen already warned folks about going too deep into this and I see this thread as being locked very soon.

 

Seriously- If you want to learn from Prepar3d, use it. If you dont want to use it as a learning tool, then dont. It's that simple. LM already has a very well provisioned legal team. They certainly do not need arm chair attorneys chiming in to support or contest their decision.

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Instead of embracing this fantastic opportunity as aviation simulation enthusiasts, we have descended into endless bickering over EULA's and made ourselves look like the forum dwellers on game message boards like 'Modern Warfare' etc, the very same market segment that LM is so keen to avoid.

 

So sad..............

 

What you just said...

 

I've said it before and I'll say it once again, I -and I alone- am responsible for making my own informed moral and ethical decisions. Such decisions as I do make are not for anyone else to gainsay. In simpler terms: MYOB.

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I'm frankly a bit surprised at the reaction here.

 

First, I would bet my brand new touring bike that Lockheed Martin cannot openly offer this for entertainment purposes. It would most likely not be allowed with their agreement with Microsoft who were developing the ill fated Flight product when the Prepa3d product hit the market.

 

Second, I doubt they would want to. They are not a direct to consumer company - the wouldn't have the customer support infrastructure to handle all the "my 30 year old joystick doesn't work with the sim - what's wrong?" kinds of questions.

 

Third, absolutely nothing has changed. Anyone can say they need the sim for training and who is to say that your PC flying isn't training for something? Developers can develop planes that folks can fly in the LM product to get trained on them.

 

If you bought the license, go fly. Stop worrying.

 

Colin

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