Two days ago I started searching on the net for ATPL courses and the costs. I knew it costs really much, but this being my dreamjob, I was looking if there is a way of making it through. The biggest problem: financials (as probably for many others).

 

So, I was wondering, how do others make it? I mean, it costs here about €65000, and that is a whole lot of money. And I don't nearly have it. I am unfortunately already too old to take part with Lufthansa's training process which doesn't cost a lot but you pay later, and only chances I saw are basically taking the money from the bank.

 

Now, while I understand that would be possible, I would have to put many ownings into bank posession to be able to get such a sum (only up to €25000 is possible without that, and that gets me nowhere). That is a huge risk. Risk of losing my whole life vs. having a way better life. A life gamble. Ugh.

 

I have been dreaming of ATPL license and job afterwards since I started knowing flying, and been flying couple of times with a friend in a DA20, and of course passenger flights in jets. I love it, all of it. My worries are connected with the risk of the life and do I really get a job afterwards, above all which is paying me enough to pay it off. I know that airline flights are currently in a constant growth and everyone is telling me that now is the right moment. But all that are only what people think... crisis might come again and crush everything...

 

I know most of your are from USA, so probably hardly know what is here in Europe (I'm in Austria), but is there some kind of sponsoring, someone investing into other people's future, like people who got money etc? I'm not the youngest, I'm 33, but still they tell me it is not too late, until 35... so I decided simply to ask what ways are there?

 

Any ideas and suggestions are much much appreciated!

I didn't know Lufthansa had an age limit on their training program, would have been ideal for you being a German speaker. Other Airlines offering full-sponsorship or part-sponsorship that I know of are ourselves at EIN, Flybe, BA (sort of), Qatar Airways (May need to be Qatari, not sure), Lufthansa (but apparently you're ruled out?), Cityjet (AFAIK) and others that aren't coming to mind...

 

Other airlines are hiring, but really the only option if you want to join them is to come pre-loaded with your ATPL in hand, and for that to happen you need to either spend your savings on it or re-mortgage your house if you don't have the savings built up. €65,000 seems quite cheap TBH, I was looking at the rates for FTE Jerez, and they're coming in around €100,000, and OAA is typically more expensive. Be very careful that the school you chose has a good background and a strong balance sheet.

 

Regards,

Ró.

The money indeed can be a major issue, especially when one has to pay for himself and there is no job guarantee. You talk about 65.000 for ATPL, does the academy offering that rate require you to pay that at once? I also did some research (in the Netherlands where i live) in what all costs there are in getting PPL/CPL etc, and found one flight school with good prices and allows you to pay in steps per "training activity", and depending on what you can spend and what your personal timeframe is. Maybe a structure like this will suit you more, i know it would for me. This is the website of the school:

 

http://www.executiveflight.nl/english/efa-content/flight-training.html

 

They are based in NL but offer their services across Europe i believe and they have nice online training options besides classroom training. And if you check out their prices you will also see that their ATPL comes ofr around 54000 - 56500 euro. You can also see the prices of all the different modules and hour building. So the nice thing is that you have some flexibility in how much to spend when, in line with your financial situation.

 

Please note i have no ties with this company or interest in it, i just found their offering very appealing.

Ronan, of course, Lufthansa is the best solution for me, if I could pass DLR that is. There is *no more* limitation!! I looked into Lufthansa training program in 2007 I believe, and they had the limit. In 2008 or 2009 I looked again, and the limit was still there. I since then did not check. The other limitation is that I am not (yet) EU-citizen. I am still Croatian, but I could probably get one very soon here, since I've been living in Austria for 13 years now.

I will now definitely inform myself again on coming Monday, see what my possibilities are. If the entry costs could be kept in limits, say max about 3-5000€, then this would be doable. If I could pass DLR, then I'm in, and the only risk of the whole thing is losing my current job, in which I am placed really nicely - being only 6km from my home, a manager in an electronics store, which is not bad, but it ain't my dreamjob. And also doesn't pay as nearly as good as a pilot job. The thing is, I would not change because of money *only*, but the world is turning around finances, and these are very important parts of our lives. I really love flying :wub:

 

Also, I did look into those pay later alternatives, the problems are very high interest costs and the only way to take such high credit is to take a really huge risk - I know I want a family, wife, house, kids... if I risk and blow it up, well then, probably none of those are going to be possible. Risking life is not my style.

 

Maybe there are some preparations for DLR I could do here in Austria until I go up to Lufthansa...

 

Do you guys know what DLR is? I don't really know what they are checking there, nor did I have a chance to research it yet, but a friend of mine, a pilot for Lufthansa, told me it's not a big deal, but you never know what people are talking about.

 

Would it be advisable to do a PPL first, to be more sure to make it afterwards or to succeed in DLR? I know I have many questions, so...sorry ^_^

Not entirely sure what the DLR is, I'm assuming something along the lines of a skills and aptitude test? In that case, as an example of how that works based on what we did, it'll probably be something along the lines of 3 stages. First stage being a maths, verbal reasoning, decision making skills, physics, English (and German as well I'd assume) test, on a computer, at home maybe or maybe in front of an examiner. If it is at home, you'll have to reproduce similar results when you get called in for stage 2. Stage 2 is the group stage where you'll be placed with a group of 5-6 other applicants and given a problem to solve between yee, can range from anything from should an airline adopt a certain type of aircraft into the fleet (the question I got when I was joining), to how should a country produce it's electrical power (a question we used for our last round of applicants), it's not all about the knowledge on the subject you have though, we'll be looking for your ability to work in a group, to communicate your points and show your general understanding and enthusiasm. Critically though in this stage is that we're looking for leadership that will be needed 15 years down the line when you become a Captain, we need to see you taking hold of the group, working with people, but also that you're able to take control in a way that everyone can work with. If you pass stage 2, stage 3 is just your typical job interview to make sure you're suited to the company and it's principals and that you'll work well. Sums up pretty much what I think the DLR is based on your post....

 

European citizenship / passport would be fairly important in working for a European airline.

 

Also keep in mind Airline jobs don't pay as well as they used to, unless you work for a legacy carrier. Lufthansa do pay well, but if you fail to get in there you may well end up with the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizz, Norwegian... ect. which don't offer as lucrative terms and conditions as legacies do. You may end up having to move to Dubai or Aisa or where ever the jobs are, and you'll have a large debt to take with you, which will have major implications for your family life... Don't let me scare you though, if you're lucky it can be one of the best careers out there, I wouldn't trade it for the world, but I'm in a good position, I know many pilots from the likes of Ryanair that love the flying, but hate the politics and the bullying that go with working for a company like that. They'd love a simple 9-5 Monday to Friday job...

 

Regards,

Ró.

For what it's worth, I have an ATPL frozen CPL/IR/ME and I did the DLR in Hamburg (for Lufthansa Italy) three years ago. Didn't pass it, like 98% of people...what Ronan told you about it is correct, at least I did just stage one and we were about 20 people sitting in front of touchscreen PC's. No plane was mentioned during the tests LOL. Mostly maths and memory things. Don't really see a point for this test, since former AZA captains were kicked out too, soo...they must have one, indeed, just don't get it.

 

Back to your question, I can tell you I got sick waiting and getting negative (or nothing) responses from all over the globe. "You haven't got enough hours" was the most used. Heck, I even haven't got a TR for that, and some airlines were offering a self-sponsored TR and line training for "only" 60k € (on the A320). Add those to the 70k I paid for the ATPL and see what comes out. Ryanair was cheaper among all, and wanted only 30k for the B738. But you have to get in first, and I wasn't able there too unfortunately (not that I didn't pass, I wasn't even called for a basic interview..).

 

So basically my advice is: get a job before starting the whole thing. Every FTO can make you get the ATPL, but out of there, you're on your own. And given that airlines require 1000h TT and 500h on type "current"...you're very low on those out of school.

Right now if you want a career is knowing somebody high ranked inside an airline, and the airline itself has to be in good economy to hire. How many of those do you know? How many experienced pilots are available on the market with so many companies drawning into debts? Believe me, many guys I trainined with are in my same position, I'm not alone. And I did well at school too!

 

To summarize, I don't want to crash your dreams, but I wouldn't want to see you paying a lot of money, like I did, for nothing. If you have a job, keep it close to you...

 

Cheers

Fede

 

P.S. I'm 32 now and finished the course at 28, on dec 23rd 2008.

Hmmmm, funnily enough, under "Requirements" there is no age. But in "Infotage", they say "Zum Zeitpunkt der Anmeldung müssen Sie 16 bis max. 26 Jahre (+ 0 Tage) alt sein." In translation: At the time of application you must be between 16 and max. 26 years old (+0 days).

 

I think I have to give them a call on Monday.

It's good to aim high when planing for the future, sometimes things are so close to you that they only show up in retrospect. A friend in India and fellow staffer is an avid simmer, got involved in home cockpit building and created a top class 737 pit, fast forward 5 years and his talents were focused on the C172 cockpit simulator and his flight training school where a number of these were in use by students.

 

Retraining has become part of our normal progression in the modern work environment, seem to recall most people having 3 distinct careers now as the norm, entire industries migrate or vanish in a decade now while new opportunities appear overnight, thrive for a year and are gone as fast.

 

What works and what will work in ten years is becoming hard to plan for, the ability to stand back and explore the many ancillary aspects to a field of interest and see an opportunity to grow into an expanding market is a godsend ,all this while tempering ones ambitions with a firm grasp of one’s limitations, it’s a fine balance .

 

 

 

Those training inside the airlines are the best ones (like the LH you mentioned) but that age limit is alwas around 26/28, at least it was last time I checked. Take a look in India or China, I know the market there is doing quite well, but I never applied at those (look at my avatar and guess why )

Hmmmm, funnily enough, under "Requirements" there is no age. But in "Infotage", they say "Zum Zeitpunkt der Anmeldung müssen Sie 16 bis max. 26 Jahre (+ 0 Tage) alt sein." In translation: At the time of application you must be between 16 and max. 26 years old (+0 days).

 

I think I have to give them a call on Monday.

To the best of my knowledge that may well be ageism which is prohibited under EU regulations, of course, that's not to say it wouldn't happen unofficially either, it certainly does as the Airline has to look at the return on it's investment.

 

 

Mostly maths and memory things. Don't really see a point for this test,

With regards to the importance of maths and memory skills, I think their importance in this industry goes without saying.

 

 

Those training inside the airlines are the best ones (like the LH you mentioned).

Indeed having a "guarenteed" job at the end when you do Cadetships for the likes of Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, BA ect... of it is a very good thing to have and will likely make getting credit easier and cheaper if you can't afford the training on your own.

 

Regards,

Ró

I know what you mean Ronan for maths and memory skils, and I agree, but if you tried those tests you'd realize what I mean. One thing is to remember the memory items in doing your job and calculating (not on the FMC LOL) weights, distances, cross wind, etc, another is listenting to random numbers and writing them back in the opposite order, or looking at images and trying to remember when one was shown., etc.

I know what you mean Ronan for maths and memory skils, and I agree, but if you tried those tests you'd realize what I mean. One thing is to remember the memory items in doing your job and calculating (not on the FMC LOL) weights, distances, cross wind, etc, another is listenting to random numbers and writing them back in the opposite order, or looking at images and trying to remember when one was shown., etc.

Back when I did it ('88), it was the same as you describe, didn't cause any hassle for me, there are more things we need to remember and keep to the front of our minds other than just weights, distances and winds. There's taxi-routings, NOTAMs, ATIS reports, Radio transmissions ect, many of them obscure and making little sense, but I get what you're saying given that most people new to the industry never would've practiced remembering things like that...

 

Regards,

Ró.

To the best of my knowledge that may well be ageism which is prohibited under EU regulations, of course, that's not to say it wouldn't happen unofficially either, it certainly does as the Airline has to look at the return on it's investment.

 

Not necessarily - the directive reads

 

'Not withstanding Article 2(2), Member States may provide that differences of treatment on grounds of age shall not constitute discrimination, if, within the context of national law, they are objectively and reasonably justified by a legitimate aim, including legitimate employment policy, labour market and vocational training objectives, and if the means of achieving that aim are appropriate and necessary.’

 

I'm sure Lufthansa's aware of German rmployment law.

Not necessarily - the directive reads

 

 

 

I'm sure Lufthansa's aware of German rmployment law.

I'm sure they are aware, just a thought though. I just know that in Ireland, you can't bias on age... officially.... :Talking Ear Off: Indeed if that is the regulation then that makes sense for the given scenario...

 

Regards,

Ró.

Section 34 of the irish Employment Equality Act 1998 reads:

 

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3), it shall not constitute discrimination on the age ground to set, in relation to any job, a maximum age for recruitment which takes account of—

 

(a) any cost or period of time involved in training a recruit to a standard at which the recruit will be effective in that job,

 

(B) the need for there to be a reasonable period of time prior to retirement age during which the recruit will be effective in that job.

 

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0021/print.html#sec2