Hi everyone. I have owned the J41 since it came out, but becasuse of a lack of time and motivation, I never really got around to flying with it. I found some time this weekend, though, and I finally completed the tutorial flight without blowing up the engines/going hopelessly off course/scaring the pax out of their minds However, I found that SIDs and STARs confuse me. Can someone point me to an online source that explains how to fly SIDs/STARs and all the details about using them and programing them into the FMC? For example, how do you find the proper crossing altitudes? How do you know which SID/STAR to fly? Can you use default FSX ATC when flying one? Thank you very much!

hamoody

Hi,

 

SID and STARS are the link from airways to the airport, and eventually the runway, a bit like roads to the highway B)

 

If you are going to use them, you are going to need some charts, these can be found from AirNav if you are flying within the US. For example, for the La Guardia charts, search Google: KLGA AirNav

Look through the SID charts untill you find the SID that goes in the general direction of your intended destination. Do the same with STAR at your destination airport. You will then need the chart for the appropriate arrival runway for the final approach fixes. -This is how I do it; your milage may vary

 

For the cruising altitudes, I generally go to FlightAware and see what the cruising altitude is for the actual real-life flight, and use that. If you want to find the exact distance between 2 or more airports, you could try http://www.gcmap.com/ -I use it all the time and find it great :lol:

 

I don't use ATC because I find that FSX's ATC is incredibly unrealistic, and it doesn't like SIDs and STARs :wacko:

 

Good luck!

And to add to the excellent answer above, using flight aware, as well as checking the altitude for your flights, you can aslo check a real world flight and see whcih SID and STAR was filed for it and use that. About crossing altitudes, only some waypoints in SID and STARS have crossing altitudes and speed restrictions. If your flying a STAR and a certain point doesnt have anything indicated for speed/altitude, then you decide what the best altitude is to cross, usually at least one point down the line in has a crossing altitude indicated, so you enter the restriction in the FMS and the aircarft will follow a profile whcih will hit the said waypoint at the right altitude. If you dont have an FMS, use the 3 to 1 descent rule based on altitude to lose times 3 equals distance to begin descent.

 

Alex Bart

To add to what Alex said:

 

----------

To calculate top of descent:

 

altitude to lose x 3 = y

y divided by 1000 = nm out to start descent

----------

To calculate rate of descent:

 

Ground speed at TOD x 5 = fpm down required

 

EDIT:

 

So say I'm approaching La Guardia and I want to be at 1700 at the PROUD intersection:

 

Current Alt: 30000

Alt to lose: 30000 - 1700 = 28300

so 28300 x 3 = 84900

84900 divided by 1000 = 84.9

 

Intended Ground Speed at TOD = 325kts

325 x 5 = 1625

 

-----

From the info above, we can conclude:

We need to start our descent 84.9nm from PROUD

Once we reach our TOD, we need to make sure our GS is the same as anticipated, and descend VS -1625fpm

Since so many good answers have been given I won't add to that but I will suggest that if you post a route you want to fly we can have a look at the possible SIDs and STARs for that route and help you out with the details. That is if you need more help after reading the three posts above

Vox ATC for sid/star allocation shortly before take off/arrival based on real weather

Vroute premium for 1 click Flight plan export

Fs2 crew is really helpful on this aircraft

your set :-)

 

I would turn off the engine blow up feature whilst training at least till you get comfortable , nothing worse than blowing up just before takeoff and start again.

Since so many good answers have been given I won't add to that but I will suggest that if you post a route you want to fly we can have a look at the possible SIDs and STARs for that route and help you out with the details. That is if you need more help after reading the three posts above

There is some great info posted above. Thanks everyone for the help. Thanks for the offer, Johan. I would really appreciate this pucsh in the right direction. I am planning to fly from Detroit (KDTW) to Quebec (CYQB). According to Flightaware, here is the real-world route: PISTN YYZ Q905 BERIK Q921 PESAC PESAC1

Thanks a whole lot for your help! I really appreciate it!

hamoody

As others have already addressed many of your questions, I'll just a few things I think might help you.

 

I recommend you grab a route off a decent flightplan database, most of these will recommend a SID/STAR. Some examples are

* Flight Aware (already mentioned, see above, not much good outside of USA)

* For flights in the USA http://www.simroutes.com

* For flights in Europe http://www.euroutepr.../fp/fp_main.php

* Also for Europe (has coverage for elsewhere too, I think you need an IVAO registration) http://www.ivao.aero/db/route/

* For flights in other regions or where no plan is found in a database try http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/

You should be warned that the SID/STAR may change depending on the runway in use.

 

Crossing altitudes are automatically calculated by the FMS in the J41 on the VNAV pages, even if you don't use a STAR it will generate them providing you've entered a destination airfield and cruising altitude. If you select a SID/STAR from the PMDG database, mandatory altitude restrictions are generally included, but you should double check them against a SID/STAR chart if possible, especially when you're learning.

 

Charts are available at:

* for the USA http://www.airnav.com/airports/

* for the UK http://www.nats-uk.e...&Itemid=13.html

Each country generally has its own website for charts, beyond the two above links your best bet to find them is to find the VATSIM website for that region and have a browse through. There is a Pan European charts database called PAMS light but it requires free registration and it's not the most user friendly of websites.

 

PS: You can't really use SIDs/STARs with the FSX default ATC.

There is some great info posted above. Thanks everyone for the help. Thanks for the offer, Johan. I would really appreciate this pucsh in the right direction. I am planning to fly from Detroit (KDTW) to Quebec (CYQB). According to Flightaware, here is the real-world route: PISTN YYZ Q905 BERIK Q921 PESAC PESAC1

Thanks a whole lot for your help! I really appreciate it!

hamoody

 

Finding canadian charts is tricky so I've done my best but they're a bit old. Detroit was easier though, and let's start there with your SID. I'm mostly flying in Europe but I'll give these a go anyway, I'm sure someone can point out any mistakes I may make.

 

Charts: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KDTW

 

You havn't indicated a SID in your Flight plan but your first point is PISTN so we'll look through the SID charts to find something that works.

 

I have to admit I can't find a SID that is valid, the St Clair 4 departure routes via PISTN but is for Jets only, so it may be that if you did this flight in a prop you'd get a non standard departure.

 

Anyhow, if we look at the St Clair 4 you'll see it consists of two pages, one chart page and one narrative. In the bottom right hand corner of the charts page you find the route description.

 

This tells you that for this SID tower will assign you a heading before take-off, fly that heading and climb to the assigned altitude, ATC will vector you to intercept the route (which may be direct PISTN but could also be via the DXO (detroit) 020 Radial which will also take you to PISTN.

 

Fairly straightforward anyway, now for the arrival.

 

You've filed PESAC1 and the chart for that can eb found in this pack:

http://www.ivao.ca/charts/CAP5/CYQB.pdf

 

You will join it overhead PESAC, now depnding on the runway in use you will take different routes.

 

For runway 06 cross PESAC at or below 11 000 feet, then fly GONUM - KAVAT and you will most likely be cleared approach via KAVAT.

 

For runway 12 fly to GONUM and leave on heading 084.

 

For runway 24 fly GONUM - YQB - SAVIN - KAVBI - BITVI, leave BITVI heading 055 and cross BITVI at or aboev 5000 feet and at max 200 knots. Expect approach clearance via IKDEB later on by ATC.

 

For runway 30 fly GONUM - YQB - REXIL - KENLO, leave KENLO heading 115 at or above 4000 and max 200 knots, expect approach clearance via MAXOG.

 

Does it make sense to you? Normally there is a text page to go with the STAR chart to but I couldn't find one for this one unfortunately.

Shameless plug:

 

I created a visual FMC Guide a while back, and it might be helpful for you:

http://library.avsim.net/download.php?DLID=156113

That's a very nice guide Kyle, just one thing I think is missing, how to get the AP and instruments into LNAV mode: Press LNAV twice (the button on the left hand side of the glareshield) then if you want to view a moving map just hit FULL/MAP.

 

Also personally, I've always descended in IAS mode and adjusted the thrust levers to get the descent rate the VNAV page on the FMS says I need, rather than using V/S as described in your guide. Typically you need around 50-65% of thrust lever travel for descents at cruise speed, moving to idle as you bleed off speed to line up for long final.

Thanks Chris. I thought getting too far into AP modes was outside the scope of the FMC guide, especially as the tutorial covered most of that stuff anyway. Why hit the button twice? I always just hit it once with no issues. I think you may be getting confused with the V/L to pull it off of LNAV in certain cases.

 

And however you hit your descent rate target is really up to you. I just have a preference for V/S because it allows me to adjust my speed independent of my V/S. Whatever works, though.

I always double press LNAV to make sure the AP NAV source is LNAV, as it may have been to V/L previously - is this superfluous? (obviously I only single press it if I just want to view the map without changing ap nav source)

 

I always thought descents in IAS mode were more realistic (similar to OP DES in an Airbus), I generally keep at cruise speed (circa 225 kias) all the way through the descent until quite close to joining the ILS, so there is little adjustment of speed. I'm not against V/S mode, as you say I think it depends on your flying style; do you know how the real Jetstream 41 pilots usually perform their descents?

is this superfluous?

 

I think so, but I'll have to double check the manuals when I get home. I know in the tutorial they mention a single versus double press of V/L while in LNAV mode because a single press allows you to remain in LNAV but set the CRS for the LOC ahead of time. A double press would bring you out of LNAV mode and into V/L, but I think that's dependent on your current active AP mode (HDG versus NAV).

A few bits'n'bobs. If there are several Airways around, the SID/STAR ensures the best route to get on/off the correct Airways, however FSX ATC may not agree with your plan but they keep you on the airway your plan chose. When you get to FSX ATC "Expect Vectors..." you can choose an approach then and ATC works fine but may appear to take you off route since it turns you onto waypoints so your GPS cannot just follow a line.If you use an addon ATC like VOX then your Ai traffic may be operating from a different runway, since if you use addin data then the aircraft must have it and the addon ATC must have it but unless it's installed as scenery, FSX ATC and hence Ai traffic doesn't know about it. Great topic.