Flight Schools - are shortcuts on safety and maintenance the norm?

[Taipan 30]

Hi Guys

 

I'm currently a student pilot, not more than 20 hours so far and I've only really trained at the one flight school.

 

I've been doing more solo flights which tend to kick the mind into "responsibility mode" where I will really take charge and try to take care of everything, and think of how to avoid anything that can go wrong.

 

This causes me some worry however, because now I'm on my own in the cockpit I have time to consider failures more. The ultimate failure I'm scared of is an engine failure after takeoff, because flying in a big city there is almost nowhere to force land. The roads are clogged with traffic, and everywhere else is warehouses, buildings, houses etc. There is a small river/creek if I time it right in one direction, and in the other direction there is a horse racing track, but besides that, not much choices.

 

I haven't seen any engine problems at this school so far besides a carb catching fire in the past on the ground (not me). But I've seen plenty of other problems that cause some worry. I want you experienced guys to tell me if these are all normal or if this flight school is really cutting corners compared to the rest?

 

Stall warning - the main aircraft I fly has a broken stall warning, I can't test it during pre-flight. Apparently it only works with the engine running. If I lose the engine, I would think it's pretty important to be warned of stalls while my brain is in "holy expletive" mode..

 

On my third solo circuit I actually lost the alternator (burning smell and intermittent operation), and the owner of the flight school didn't want to fix it until it completely died. Of course I'm not flying that plane anymore and opted for a different aircraft.

 

The other aircraft has a seatbelt that doesn't retract, so you can only use the waist strap. Also com1 is broken, only com2 works. These are 1978 piper warriors.

 

Also any problems the owner won't let us write it on the maintenance release, and wants us to just leave a note so he can judge it. This makes us responsible but preserves the value of the plane for the owner - and keeps the plane in rotation for the next student.

 

Water in the fuel - this worries me because I've read a few accident reports where their engine failure was caused by water in the fuel, leading to some terrible crash landings.

Everything I've read in my theory says any water in the fuel means the tank has to be drained and can't be flown that day. However the instructors there say this is not the case because they get alot of water and all you need to do is keep using the fuel tester on the bottom of the tank until it shows no more water, that this is actually taking the water out of the fuel.

 

Is water in fuel that common? Is normal practice to fly after finding it, and just drain it with the fuel tester tube?

 

Depending on your answers I may be looking for a new flight school.. or even another aerodrome where there is actually some flat area to force land on to boost my confidence. I'm doing this for FUN not for necessity or career, so I don't want to be risking my life. If the flying is up to me I can handle it but I don't want to go down due to something outside my control like a dodgy aircraft...

 

What I'm worried about though, is that ALL flight schools are like this (that's what people tell me anyway), that they are trying to save money and not fixing everything etc.

 

Thanks guys

 

ps in particular anyone from any Australian schools I'd like to know if your flight school is also like this

[meshman 109]

In another industry (trucking) safety is bantered about freely and the commitment to such proudly proclaimed for all to hear. That is unless a really important customer needs the load there ASAP...

 

I practiced safety for one reason, me! Besides not wanting to hassle with paperwork, drug tests, getting a lease terminated, etc, my goal was to be able to get out of the truck in the same shape as I got into the truck. I walked away from situations where safety was just a word, rather than a commitment. I lost out on revenue because I would not sacrifice my standards of safe operation.

 

You have concerns about safety? Are you wanting validation of those concerns? Or have you not yet defined what type of pilot you want to be? There's an old adage in trucking; you can go too slow around the curve as many times as you want, but you'll only go around the curve too fast once!

 

You know what you need to do, don't you?

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

I wouldn't say they take 'shortcuts on safety' but you have to remember you are using aircraft that are now getting to be 30+ years old in a lot of cases. Do your checks and keep falling back on your training. Walk-around are their for a very good reason. If you are not comfortable with something then tell someone...

 

From my experience, The school I went to did lose an aircraft killing an instructor and a student in a 1970's C150. I rented that aircraft a few months prior to that accident. This is from my logbook:

 

Feb 9 1998, C150, GSCN, Circuits, Flight time was 0.4 hours

Feb 10 1998, C150, GSCN, Circuits, Flight time was 1.0 hours

 

I remember on Feb 9 doing the walk-around noting that the Engine Cowl was loose and cracked. I notified FBO and they said they knew about it and it wasn't an issue. I took it out anyways but something about that aircraft didn't feel right to me.

 

Flying circuits that day I felt the engine was a little rougher then normal so I took it back with only 0.4 of the full hour, as I really felt their was something not right about that aircraft. Told FBO about the experience and they apologized, and we rescheduled another hour for the next day.

 

Next day the FBO gave me the same C150 GSCN again and I wasn't happy about it. I didn't want to waste another day and just took it for the hour telling myself to not think about it and get the circuit time in. I would have refused it if I was taking it cross country.

 

I never rented that aircraft again as from then on I refused it, never felt comfortable in that one. 4 months after the last time I rented it, that aircraft crashed killing an instructor and fellow student.

 

When the TSB was investigating it I called them to report my experience with that aircraft, unfortunately that accident got sidelined with the crash of Swissair Flight 111. All available resources were prioritized to the Swissair investigation. By the time they got back to GSCN they didn't really find anything wrong with it or call me back......Here is the report:

 

http://www.tsb.gc.ca...39/a98o0139.pdf

 

 

That was the only time I ever felt not right about an aircraft. After that accident I switched schools and went to a different airport for training. I never been in another aircraft that made me feel uncomfortable again, hard to explain why GSCN made me feel the way I did about it.

 

The investigation didn't find a cracked cowling that I know was there, but it is possible that evidence of a crack was undetectable after the accident as this aircraft came fast and steep. The instructor and students were practising stalls and spins that day

[Cessnaflyer 56]

Stall warning - the main aircraft I fly has a broken stall warning, I can't test it during pre-flight. Apparently it only works with the engine running. If I lose the engine, I would think it's pretty important to be warned of stalls while my brain is in "holy expletive" mode..

 

Being a Warrior it requires the battery to work. When you turn on the master switch it should work, the engine turning will have nothing to do with it.

 

On my third solo circuit I actually lost the alternator (burning smell and intermittent operation), and the owner of the flight school didn't want to fix it until it completely died. Of course I'm not flying that plane anymore and opted for a different aircraft.

 

I have lost alternators in three circumstances unfortunately they go out. The airplane still flies and you land at your airport. The reason why the operator still wants it to fly is because it might have been an intermittent fault and those things are nearly a $1000 to replace. Not something you want to do if you don't have to.

 

The other aircraft has a seatbelt that doesn't retract, so you can only use the waist strap. Also com1 is broken, only com2 works. These are 1978 piper warriors.

 

Again it's annoying when something is broken but sometimes you have to suck it up and deal with it. Check in the POH to see if it is required to be operational to use the aircraft. Even in the airlines you would be amazed at what the airplanes fly with that are broken.

 

Also any problems the owner won't let us write it on the maintenance release, and wants us to just leave a note so he can judge it. This makes us responsible but preserves the value of the plane for the owner - and keeps the plane in rotation for the next student.

 

This is slightly sketchy but at the same times student pilots don't always make the correct decisions on what should be written up. We had one aircraft that would burn out landing lights all the time and students would write it up thus grounding the airplane for everyone even though it is not required for day VFR flight. There would be a simple note that was in the log so it wouldn't ground it but the pilots would know that night flight was not allowed with the aircraft.

 

Is water in fuel that common? Is normal practice to fly after finding it, and just drain it with the fuel tester tube?

 

Depending what type of environment you are flying in it could be common. Where I flew small airplanes it was very dry and we only got water in the fuel a couple days out of the year. Here in Hawaii I hear it is pretty common with the higher humidity and when the water condenses out of the air in the tanks and goes into the fuel. It takes quite a bit of water to completely kill an airplane.

 

The main thing to realize about flying is that there is a risk, you have a lot of things that can go wrong that need to be minimized or managed. With proper training all situations should be easy to handle and will minimize the risk we take when we go flying.

[petedob 3]

Dan,

 

Find another flight school with better maintained aircraft. From what you described the small issues may be indicative of bigger problems with the aircraft you are piloting...it's not worth the risk.

[Fatback 84]

A flight school at heart is just another Operator of aircraft, bound by the country's air regulations (FAA in the US, for example). There are strict maintenance requirements and all aircraft have minimum equipment requirements. I would think a stall warning is one of them, and without it the aircraft couldn't fly by regulation. There are always shady operators in any business, but if you know of an air operator in your country that is flouting the regulations (whether or not it is the stall warning) you should report it, anonymously if necessary. People's lives are at stake.

[HiFlyer 9,376]

I have been in businesses were for the sake of saving a few dollars or some time (or both) corners were cut, ofttimes directly contrary to law and the companys publicly stated policies on safety. Always the people wanting to cut said corners tried to convince or bully me into acquiescing to the argument that I was making a problem where none really existed, or was overreacting.

 

They would point to others who were being "team players" and ask why I was being the troublemaker or the difficult one. They even occasionally hinted that perhaps I would lose out in some way or not advance unless I went along.

 

You can imagine their wide eyed reactions of shock when something went wrong and somebody was hurt/injured, and their suitably grave faces as they lead us through the safety retraining that we had (oh so sadly) somehow failed to take seriously despite all of their earnest efforts..........

 

Only you can decide where you personally draw the line, but my response to such people when they attempt to inform me how "real life works" has always been that I was hale and hearty (and within the law) when I commenced working with them, and that I intended to remain so throughout my working relationship with them

 

Period.

 

I would then do what I thought was right. My best suggestion is that you do the same.

[brucek 38]

Dan,

 

Find another flight school with better maintained aircraft. From what you described the small issues may be indicative of bigger problems with the aircraft you are piloting...it's not worth the risk.

 

+1

 

I did my private pilot license at one of these clubs and didn't really appreciate how bad things were until I joined a new club at another busy Class D airport close by to do my instrument- where they actually dispatch aircraft and you talk with a dispatcher about the weather and any PIREPs, and are made to regularly go through the maintenance log to be able to fly their a/c and check that everything is current.

 

So, there are some good places out there- the one that I went to only had recent build C172's, and it cost more to fly there- but money doesn't matter when you're up there and something goes wrong....

 

I'm sure now that with 20 hours you have explored the stall characteristics of your a/c, and can most likely recognize an incipient stall prior to the stall alarm- but you still need to have it working in case you get distracted. have you talked to your CFI? If he doesn't care, get another one!

 

Good luck with your training, Bruce.

[FSMP 95]

Dan,

 

Find another flight school with better maintained aircraft. From what you described the small issues may be indicative of bigger problems with the aircraft you are piloting...it's not worth the risk.

 

+1

[Taipan 30]

That was the only time I ever felt not right about an aircraft. After that accident I switched schools and went to a different airport for training. I never been in another aircraft that made me feel uncomfortable again, hard to explain why GSCN made me feel the way I did about it.

 

Yep and the aircraft I switched to because of the alternator in my usual plane I do not feel right in, to the point that it affects how I fly. The seat doesn't stay upright, I'm holding myself upright almost with my stomach muscles and my headset touches the roof (I'm tall but the other warriors were fine). Plus this aircraft the shoulder strap doesn't work so it's belt only, and it has a cruise prop which is not ideal for touch n go's meaning I have to use more runway than I would like to get airborne, plus it has no trim indication.

 

This is probably part of my uneasiness, I took that aircraft solo for an hour of circuits in 10knot crosswind and I was sweating after 15 minutes and holding my breath at times in concentration. Having to account for crosswind + lots of ground effect floatiness with the instructors weight gone is a little harder when I'm holding myself up from the backrest being too far back. It also makes me give slight oscillations on flare i.e. I don't have a stable base to pull the yoke from.

 

I think if I just avoid that aircraft I'll feel alot more comfortable, with no distractions I'm very confident. I just have to get the owner to fix alternator first.

 

To those who suggest to find another school - it's very difficult to do. Currently this school has the best instructors in the area, there are many bad things written about the other schools in the area on PPrune, but only very good things about my school. In fact several of the other schools have been involved in a few fatal accidents for various reasons.

 

I very much do like the instructors actually and the feel of the place, although the aircraft are older than others. At least with these planes I know I have taken them up and down again, but a new school is another unknown and new procedures I don't want to throw into the mix.

 

I think I'll stick with this school, increase my vigilance on the pre-flight checks, and prepare myself to say no sometimes to flying, and I'll request to avoid that particular aircraft that I do not like.

 

I'm sure now that with 20 hours you have explored the stall characteristics of your a/c, and can most likely recognize an incipient stall prior to the stall alarm- but you still need to have it working in case you get distracted. have you talked to your CFI? If he doesn't care, get another one!

 

Yep the stalls are very easy to recover from in this aircraft with this stall warning that requires the engine. It recovers on it's own almost, Piper Warriors are pretty easy to handle. Although I haven't tried anything fancy like dropping a wing or crossed controls.

 

The CFI is actually the owner.. I don't see him much but I speak to my instructor.

 

Being a Warrior it requires the battery to work. When you turn on the master switch it should work, the engine turning will have nothing to do with it.

Well it probably doesn't work at all then :( I can't remember from my stall training if I heard a warning or not it was a few months ago. I do try to keep a good eye on the ASI, and I try to never let my approaches get too slow.

 

I have lost alternators in three circumstances unfortunately they go out. The airplane still flies and you land at your airport. The reason why the operator still wants it to fly is because it might have been an intermittent fault and those things are nearly a $1000 to replace. Not something you want to do if you don't have to.

Makes sense, the owner said it was always like that but it's not the case. Intermittent maybe, but a burning smell is not a good sign. I'll see what happens.

 

This is slightly sketchy but at the same times student pilots don't always make the correct decisions on what should be written up. We had one aircraft that would burn out landing lights all the time and students would write it up thus grounding the airplane for everyone even though it is not required for day VFR flight. There would be a simple note that was in the log so it wouldn't ground it but the pilots would know that night flight was not allowed with the aircraft.

Yep, this is the way it works. Thanks for confirming it's not uncommon, I just wanted to know.

 

Depending what type of environment you are flying in it could be common. Where I flew small airplanes it was very dry and we only got water in the fuel a couple days out of the year. Here in Hawaii I hear it is pretty common with the higher humidity and when the water condenses out of the air in the tanks and goes into the fuel. It takes quite a bit of water to completely kill an airplane.

Yep, and to be fair the accident reports I read the pilots apparently did not check the fuel for water, so it was probably alot more than what I find coming out of the tank.

 

The main thing to realize about flying is that there is a risk, you have a lot of things that can go wrong that need to be minimized or managed. With proper training all situations should be easy to handle and will minimize the risk we take when we go flying.

Too true, I'm hoping to read more and get more experience to minimise this risk. I might even do some aerobatic training to get myself used to all kinds of recoveries. Probably less time simming, more time reading

[internerd 1]

PPrune isn't the best place to frequent for advice. A lot of false stuff is thrown about by 'experts'.

 

Warriors have an electric stall warning, turn the master on and check it. No bleep don't dispatch the aircraft.

 

Water in th fuel can be a cause for alarm. First it's important to get all the water out, because of a higher SG it should accumulate at the lowest point in the tank. First thing I do in a preflight/ daily is gently rock the wings to insure water is displaced. I then drain the tanks after completing the daily giving the water time to daily. The second problem is cause for alarm as it can indicate faulty seals which can reduce your endurance. Or it could be cause by half empty tanks and a warm day cool night cycle, which won't give you any problems.

[kannwar 47]

People who keep ignoring safety related issues are likely to, metaphorically speaking, end up like this guy:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-hFfyAtitc

[IAF747 8]

In Australia we have the Aero Clubs. I believe their safety is top notch. The commercial operators sometimes have issues, but the biggest problems I have seen are exactly the same I see on the roads. People willing to take risks usually end up in the dirt. Usually the ones that take bigger risks end up seriously hurt or dead.

 

Matthew makes a good point. Listen to yourinstinct. Also, know your emergency checklists off by heart.

 

There is a great video of a guy landing his aircraft (homebuilt I think it was) in a golf course. Lack of a golf course, a street will do. Have no fear. Yes, have respect. But if you let fear get you you are as good as dead.

 

And landing somewhere difficult may be hard, but remember its not everyday your engine gives up. It is very rare, if not at all.

 

If you get into good habits and maintain your own standards (so you won't lower them to get a job-as that can get you into trouble) you will find that you will have trouble free flying.

 

The human factors are also important. Egos and gethomeitus contribute to serious injury and death too. There are a number of these human factors worth looking into, which brought about Crew Resource Management after the Canary Islands Disaster. Korean Airlines and China Airlines had the same problems as KLM.

 

[LHookins 3,113]

The seat doesn't stay upright, I'm holding myself upright almost with my stomach muscles

 

My mind keeps coming back to this. That frightens me. I wouldn't even drive a car with that problem.

 

Water in the fuel? I always thought the purpose of the stopcocks was not to check to see if there was water, but to drain the water you knew would be there. Where I live, it's not that odd to get 40 degrees F of difference between the low and high temperature for the day, with the low still well above freezing. I'd only worry if the water were excessive.

 

Intermittent alternator? My biggest fear there would be to smell burning, think it was the alternator, and have it be something else. I'd suggest not plugging a sensitive electronic device into the plane's electrical system in the mean time... just in case. Does anyone know if an alternator going out can kill the engine? Or cause a fire?

 

But that seat...

 

I'd be interviewing other instructors at other airports, just to see if you like one of them better.

 

Hook

[Taipan 30]

 

Intermittent alternator? My biggest fear there would be to smell burning, think it was the alternator, and have it be something else. I'd suggest not plugging a sensitive electronic device into the plane's electrical system in the mean time... just in case. Does anyone know if an alternator going out can kill the engine? Or cause a fire?

 

 

The engine won't quit from an alternator or battery failure thankfully, but soon after it can convert your panel into something with the same functionality of a WW1 aircraft.

 

Some instruments require electrical power, and the battery only has 10 minutes left in some weather.

 

The electric fuel pump I wouldn't want to lose either if need to switch tanks etc. Also I wouldn't want to lose radio with four aircraft in the left circuit and parrallel runway operations, in fact I don't want to lose anything if I can help it.

 

On complex aircraft you could have landing gear and flaps that use electrical power, requiring you to go into checklists that aren't often used for manual extension etc. I've read about people forgetting to lock the gear after manual extension in their stress or even forgetting the gear altogether due to the worry from having a failure.

 

The real time an alternator failure is life threatening is at night or in IMC, when those instruments and ATC are your only guidance. Although I have yet to experience either of those, I can imagine how scary it would be flying in a cloud at night over rough terrain to have the lights go out, although I'd rather be doing that sort of thing in a twin with two alternators..

 

But that seat...

 

I'd be interviewing other instructors at other airports, just to see if you like one of them better.

 

Yeah the seat is the worst, and I'll be avoiding that in the future. I'm sure it's fine for short people as many seem to like the plane.. but not me.

 

Other airports - not an option. Our main airport is international and doesn't have GA, and the other GA airports are 1.5 hours away mainly due to clogged traffic on the roads. My current airport is the only one in 30-40 minutes driving distance