I don't seem to have a problem as you describe with the default Baron, I can trim pretty well althogh I have just got a new Yoke , Rudder pedals and best of all a trim wheel. It is the Saitek Pro Cessna series, which has really made a difference in being able to trim. The Cessna trim wheel makes all the difference in the world, in trimming for level flight, I have always had trouble trimming for level flight with my old CH Flight yoke, although it is getting quite old. One of my gripe with FSX was never being able to trim for level flight using the elevator trim, and much the same problem with X-Plane. The Cessna Trim Wheel is really a blessing in that regard, with it I can easily trim for level flight, although I haven't tried FSX with it. (A ask for today in fact). Using the rocker switches on the Cessna Yoke is much easier to trim for rudder and aileron also, that may be due to being new though. Using buttons to trim with rather than an axis, I would suspect one should change some of the trim characteristics with PlaneMaker. I have done that in the past with fair results.

Considering we do find some problems with X-Plane.............that needs correction; I keep seeing this same response to XP criticism at the org. I'm banned from any replies there. IMO, this guy hasn't a real clue of what he's talking about. It's the usual generalized blanket statement, that drives me up the wall.

 

"And I say it again, think aviation when starting with X-Plane is the way to go, forget everything what you know from FSX. Because you have been using the MS fake simulator for years. This makes you struggle to start or land a plane in the first place. In X-Plane you are so much closer to the real thing, you have to learn flying! Surprised?"

 

The term "hunting" is very applicable to the problem. Even when trimmed, the sim easily drifts off again. This is NOT closer to the real thing.

 

L.Adamson

If it's drifting, it is simply not trimmed good enough. Yes, it is sensible. Is it impossible to trim? no. Especially light birds are tough to trim. Take the recently released Blackshape Prime as an example. You'll never ever going to manage to trim it with the default plane maker settings it comes with. Trim speed is set MUCH too fast. I turned it up from something like a second to something like 30 seconds. Now it is fine and pretty easy to trim. Alternativly consider using very fine throttle adjustments. Pulliing to the left and can't be trimmed any better? Ease a tiny bit on the throttle.

 

So basically you guys are always talking two issues here that don't necessarily have something in common. Issue one is: Trim is very often set too sensitive in Plane Maker, making it nearly impossible to trim. But it can be done. Issue two is: An X-Plane discussion that's a classic. This FAQ/page is from what, like X-Plane 6 or 7 maybe? See http://home.earthlin...ory-Spiral.html

 

So. Where to go from here? Who is discussing all the mentioned issues with Austin and what is HIS feedback?

I feel improvements can be put into two categories-however they both relate to each other:

1) trim

2) stability

 

As for the trim issue-most light GA aircraft have only pitch trim-they are designed thru things like dihedral of the wings to self correct thru dutch rolls in the roll department.

 

1) The trim issue I suppose could be a problem in the fm, fm trim settings, joystick routine or even the joystick.

 

However I have three different joysticks (saitek, logitech, and chpro) and a go flight trim wheel and have the same problem.

 

I did some experiments with trim in the default Baron. Took it to level cruise flight then started trimming-on all 3 axis's which again should not need to be done.The default wants to roll to the left on my setup-keep cranking in rudder trim-get it level-then it starts rolling another direction-and at a certain point I run out of trim and it still is rolling to the left. Pitch likewise-you get it trimmed-then it starts hunting another direction.

 

I take the Carenado Bonanza and do the same-oddly it wants to roll right. However-I can trim it out-somewhat...but every few seconds I have do diddle with trim in some axis-e.g. spend all of my time trimming the plane instead of flying it. This is not realistic behavior.

 

As mentioned above-fsx has always been well behaved in the roll/yaw axis but pitch trim with it to a lesser extent was always been a trim chase too.

 

Interestingly-aerofly fs seems to trim easily and simulates very well the way a trimmed plane flies with my equipment which brings me to the second point

 

2) Stability. Pure and simple stability is the tendency of an airplane in flight to remain in straight, level, upright flight and to return to this attitude, if displaced, without corrective action by the pilot.

 

Static stability-the tendency to return to the original position and dynamic stability the overall tendency of an airplane to return to its original position following a series of damped out oscillations.

 

Stability can be measured on any sim by trimming it (if it can be) and then putting it in say a gentle bank or pulling gently up on the stick-and seeing if it comes back to its trimmed position. FAR part 23 spells out very specific requirements for this.

 

So in my case-trimming never quite happens-it is a continual chase on all axis-but I have gotten close enough with the Carenado to also see that the plane exhibits negative stability.

 

For the non flyers-the video I posted above shows the behavior of a trimmed airplane in turbulence. The plane has been trimmed in pitch axis-and that acts as the rock of Gibraltar. All of the little upsets-updrafts, yaw etc. are corrected by the pilot with very small yoke corrections which keep the plane "on the rock"-hence you see absolutely no movement in the altimeter or heading indicator despite it being rough. If this same pilot simply left go of the controls-the plane would try to self right itself with a series of oscillations which in this turbulence and in a Baron might require a little help from the pilot-but very little. In a Piper with a Hershey bar wing perhaps none.

 

If the plane was not trimmed properly-then there would be a fight on the controls going on-and it would react more the way a typical xplane reacts presently.

 

I am just hopeful with feedback that improvements can be made in this area.

 

Larry-for that poster you quoted it would be interesting to share this link that just came out:

http://www.aopa.org/...&WT.mc_sect=sap

but every few seconds I have do diddle with trim in some axis-e.g. spend all of my time trimming the plane instead of flying it. This is not realistic behavior.

 

That's exactly it, the trimming never stops. I don't seem to notice it in pitch, just roll? Maintaining altitude is usually not an issue, but the roll is like being on a boat rocking side to side. Kind of like what's currently happening in Goran's Duchess with the AP on, rolling side to side.

 

Think I need to continue to play with those settings in Plane Maker to decrease the trim sensitivity.

That's exactly it, the trimming never stops. I don't seem to notice it in pitch, just roll? Maintaining altitude is usually not an issue, but the roll is like being on a boat rocking side to side. Kind of like what's currently happening in Goran's Duchess with the AP on, rolling side to side.

 

Think I need to continue to play with those settings in Plane Maker to decrease the trim sensitivity.

Glen

Please contact Cameron about the updated flight model for the Duchess. This has been fixed, tested and submitted to X-Aviation.

Glen

Please contact Cameron about the updated flight model for the Duchess. This has been fixed, tested and submitted to X-Aviation.

 

Will do Goran, thank you. I quite often get sightseeing and set the AP. The Duchess flies just fine without it.

It's an interesting adventure to Google X-Plane & torque. I read some 2011 postings, in which a flight instructor was questioning the constant left roll effects, that somehow seemed to begin with a particular version of XP9. He said, that if it wasn't fixed, then they probably wouldn't be renewing 4 keys for their flight simulators at a cost of $2000.00 There were a number of answers ranging from problems in the flight model...... to it's okay.

 

I then read a very recent one from the org. Again, it's a question of left roll & calm weather. Some answers state that the sim is over exaggerating the effect. However, another reply goes into a long winded discussion regarding physics. In essence, the engine is always trying to roll the plane, once the aircraft leaves the ground. And that this effect is always countered by the pilot applying a bit of right aileron, or using aileron trim if available. And then of course, with each change in airspeed, new trim is required again. There is even a +1 for this explanation.

 

Well, so much for incorrect explanations. When aircraft are built, they're test flown to show any roll tendency at cruise speeds. They should remain level without pressure on the stick. Cessna uses an adjustable cam method to adjust incidence on the rear spar if necessary. Other methods may involve a very slight squeeze of the opposite aileron to a heavy wing. In the case of my kitbuilt RV, I had a heavy right wing. Even the full opposite aileron trim wouldn't completely counteract it. Yet, the stick forces to counteract were extremely light. I didn't even notice on the first few flights, until farther testing. Looking into the option of using a wedge as a trim tab, I noticed that the trailing radius of the left aileron was slightly larger in diameter than the right. Just a light squeeze for about 18" of the left aileron resulted in perfect trim. The squeeze is so light, that it didn't even effect the paint job. The electric aileron trim now stays very close to neutral depending if I have a passenger & fuel load. Looking at both ailerons in cruise flight, you can see that they are straight with each other. So much for this "constant" right stick...........stuff.

 

There is even a good writeup of flight testing the Lancair that Austin Meyer was using for the "auto landing" system he helped develop. In that case, the flaps had to have farther adjustment to make them symmetrical. Point is, with purposely built in design, such as engine cant to the right, we should NOT have to be constantly applying right aileron, and then possibly some rudder to counteract yaw, thanks to the now opposing ailerons.........as we're in cruise flight.

 

To imply that this is the normal physics of small plane travel is just wrong, and some people unfortunately get the idea, that that's how it really is.

 

L.Adamson

It's an interesting adventure to Google X-Plane & torque. I read some 2011 postings, in which a flight instructor was questioning the constant left roll effects, that somehow seemed to begin with a particular version of XP9. He said, that if it wasn't fixed, then they probably wouldn't be renewing 4 keys for their flight simulators at a cost of $2000.00 There were a number of answers ranging from problems in the flight model...... to it's okay.

 

I then read a very recent one from the org. Again, it's a question of left roll & calm weather. Some answers state that the sim is over exaggerating the effect. However, another reply goes into a long winded discussion regarding physics. In essence, the engine is always trying to roll the plane, once the aircraft leaves the ground. And that this effect is always countered by the pilot applying a bit of right aileron, or using aileron trim if available. And then of course, with each change in airspeed, new trim is required again. There is even a +1 for this explanation.

 

Well, so much for incorrect explanations. When aircraft are built, they're test flown to show any roll tendency at cruise speeds. They should remain level without pressure on the stick. Cessna uses an adjustable cam method to adjust incidence on the rear spar if necessary. Other methods may involve a very slight squeeze of the opposite aileron to a heavy wing. In the case of my kitbuilt RV, I had a heavy right wing. Even the full opposite aileron trim wouldn't completely counteract it. Yet, the stick forces to counteract were extremely light. I didn't even notice on the first few flights, until farther testing. Looking into the option of using a wedge as a trim tab, I noticed that the trailing radius of the left aileron was slightly larger in diameter than the right. Just a light squeeze for about 18" of the left aileron resulted in perfect trim. The squeeze is so light, that it didn't even effect the paint job. The electric aileron trim now stays very close to neutral depending if I have a passenger & fuel load. Looking at both ailerons in cruise flight, you can see that they are straight with each other. So much for this "constant" right stick...........stuff.

 

There is even a good writeup of flight testing the Lancair that Austin Meyer was using for the "auto landing" system he helped develop. In that case, the flaps had to have farther adjustment to make them symmetrical. Point is, with purposely built in design, such as engine cant to the right, we should NOT have to be constantly applying right aileron, and then possibly some rudder to counteract yaw, thanks to the now opposing ailerons.........as we're in cruise flight.

 

To imply that this is the normal physics of small plane travel is just wrong, and some people unfortunately get the idea, that that's how it really is.

 

L.Adamson

 

Can you please post the links of where you saw these write-ups? Like you, I enjoy reading.

Can you please post the links of where you saw these write-ups? Like you, I enjoy reading.

 

Torque effect roll in XPlane vs Real Life? ....... X-Plane org. March 2011

 

Yesterday at the org. Just look for the one about calm weather.

 

edit: And Austin's plane. At t- 3 days. This is a very interesting subject.

 

http://www.x-plane.c...ep/12_prep.html

Oh, so this is at the org...and a post that is 2 years old.

When you said you read some 2011 postings about some flight instructor, I thought you were talking about the actual flight instructor posting complaints about torque roll.

Oh, so this is at the org...and a post that is 2 years old.

When you said you read some 2011 postings about some flight instructor, I thought you were talking about the actual flight instructor posting complaints about torque roll.

 

Yes, a flight instructor who is questioning the torque effects in X-Plane.

 

BTW--- I like Austin's comments about the real flight test:

 

"Dave, the test pilot, has found the following issues at a 6:30 flight this morning:

The plane wants to ROLL left ever so slightly, due to an imperceptibly-small difference in the left and right flap rigging. The effect is doubtless much smaller than the gigantic roll moment that comes from engine power application, but is still a few percent away from perfect."

and a post that is 2 years old

 

You mean it's been like that for 2 years and no one's called them on it??

 

We went through these same arguments in Microsoft Flight after the last patch made the aircraft roll left in cruise flight. This isn't a new argument for some of us.

 

How did you fix the problem with your aircraft, Goran? There might be a useful technique others can use. Default aircraft having problems out of the box isn't a new thing.

 

Hook

How did you fix the problem with your aircraft, Goran? There might be a useful technique others can use. Default aircraft having problems out of the box isn't a new thing.

 

Hook

I honestly don't know. I just do what I think has to be done to a flight model. To give you an accurate answer, I would have to go through the default flight models and see what they haven't done to determine what I have done that is different.

It could be any number of things. Radius of gyration, default aileron trim setting, phase out, stability, aileron dampening, etc...

There are too many things to list that could reduce or even eliminate torque roll.

Well, so much for incorrect explanations. When aircraft are built, they're test flown to show any roll tendency at cruise speeds. They should remain level without pressure on the stick. Cessna uses an adjustable cam method to adjust incidence on the rear spar if necessary. Other methods may involve a very slight squeeze of the opposite aileron to a heavy wing.

[CUT]

Point is, with purposely built in design, such as engine cant to the right, we should NOT have to be constantly applying right aileron, and then possibly some rudder to counteract yaw, thanks to the now opposing ailerons.........as we're in cruise flight.

 

Thanks, that was an interesting post to read.

 

When aircraft are built, they're test flown to show any roll tendency at cruise speeds. They should remain level without pressure on the stick.

 

So, if they are balanced to null-out the engine torque at cruise conditions, shouldn't they exhibit some roll tendency at different conditions? (e.g. idle engine and descenting at cruise speed, max power at low speed, etc.).