That's all well and good. But I'm not interested in Geof's opinions on X-Plane at this present moment. I'm interested in YOURS. Can you actually pay it a compliment.

 

If you don't think blade element is any better than lookup tables, that's your opinion. And that is all it is. An opinion.

Others share your opinion, and others have different opinions.

Maybe when you can respect that, without challenging it, we may be able to move forward instead of hanging around the same, pointless debates.

 

You should certainly be interested in Mr. Applegate's comments. Which are preferrable? An actual pilot who has owned and flown these aircraft, or just someone, I suppose.

 

And yes, my opinion is also opinion. And it's an educated opinion. It's based on real life observation, from a piloting standpoint. I've had the thrill of flying nearly all types of single engine Cessnas & Pipers. A few twins too. Also the Pitt's (aerobatic) as well as aerobatic gliders. The Marchetti SF260, Diamond DA40, Maule, Bonanza, Super Stearman, lot's of high performance "experimentals" such as my Van's RV, numerous ultra-lights...........and probably more that don't come into my mind just yet.

 

So really, you can claim that "blade element theory" ( in the context of flight dynamics) is going to out perform my Real Air (FSX) SF260, Lancair legacy, & Baytower RV7...........all you want to. I know better. So NO, I will not respect your claim of "blade theory" superiority, and will always challenge, if required. On the other hand, you seem to have a problem with my opinion, that neither method is superior. You'll always state that XP flight dynamics are the more superior & accurate method. And it doesn't seem to matter what anyone else has to say............experienced or not. What you wrote above about Mr. Applegate's opinion, says just that.

 

L.Adamson

Actually, as someone who is looking for a new flight sim and researching XP, I find LAdamson's post to be more useful than 10000 gushing reviews would be. There's information in that post that I need to know to make my decisions.

 

He's not bashing XP so much as pointing out highly biased and misleading comparisons.

 

Hook

 

I can respect that you want to see varying opinions before making a decision on whether or not to get the sim. I can also understand that a biased opinion in favor of X-Plane might not be useful to you. The problem is that there is a bit of a history between the individual in question and this particular forum. It's an X-Plane forum, so naturally, you're going to see a tilt in favor of the positives.

 

Unfortunately, others are going to constantly use FSX plus a stack of addons as a measuring stick against XPX default, and as long as they do that, FSX will always come out on top. The problem I have with that is the need for some people to constantly and repetitively assert that any time someone has a positive thing to say about XPX. It's not that I can't stand to read opposing viewpoints, it's just I can't stand to read the same, tired arguments that have become completely useless in their repetition. There are others who participate here who aren't exactly cheerleaders for XP, but their opinions carry some objectivity and a sense that better things are on the horizon. Geofa and Glen both come to mind. Both have specific issues with the platform, but both have indicated that there is something of value to be had there as development continues.

 

Contrast that with everything it seems Larry has to say, and the impression is one that he won't be satisfied until X-Plane is either a carbon copy of FSX+addons in all aspects, or that it ceases to be full stop. Honestly, it's almost like he's personally offended by the very existence of the program and all to eager to make that known.

 

Regarding what I chose to call this thread, I stand by what I said. Perhaps it's not the same definition of "superior" as another's, nor is it referring to what someone else requires from a representation of clouds in their sim, but it does for me. No spinning billboards and no screwy parallax bugs = superior, in my opinion.

Contrast that with everything it seems Larry has to say, and the impression is one that he won't be satisfied until X-Plane is either a carbon copy of FSX+addons in all aspects, or that it ceases to be full stop. Honestly, it's almost like he's personally offended by the very existence of the program and all to eager to make that known.

 

That's rediculous. I own XP 8/9 & have the 10 demo. I have four payware aircraft, as well as freeware airplanes & scenery. I use it just as much as FSX & FS9. I'm not offended by the existence, whatsover. Okay, I may like Austin for his donations to animal shelters more than his marketing for X-Plane, but that's a personal thing. Just don't feed me the automatic & generalized Blade Element superior flight dynamic mumbo, and I'll be just fine.

You should certainly be interested in Mr. Applegate's comments. Which are preferrable? An actual pilot who has owned and flown these aircraft, or just someone, I suppose.

 

Please read my first statement again. I said I wan't interested in Geof's opinion at this present time. I am interested in your opinion about x-planes flight model. All you have said in these forums is how bad it is. Then you try to justify yourself by saying "I fly X-Plane and FSX."

 

And yes, my opinion is also opinion. And it's an educated opinion. It's based on real life observation, from a piloting standpoint. I've had the thrill of flying nearly all types of single engine Cessnas & Pipers. A few twins too. Also the Pitt's (aerobatic) as well as aerobatic gliders. The Marchetti SF260, Diamond DA40, Maule, Bonanza, Super Stearman, lot's of high performance "experimentals" such as my Van's RV, numerous ultra-lights...........and probably more that don't come into my mind just yet.

 

My old flight instructor has an ATPL, been a flying instructor for about 8 years, has flown aircraft as an air courier in the outback of Australia, has over 2000 hours in a Saab 340B and is now flying an ATR 72...and he says X-Plane is far better than FSX when it comes to the flight model. So would his opinion on flight models be more valuable than yours and Geof's? My answer to that question would be a resounding "Yes". Would I listen to him over you or Geof? Again, Yes. And he has absolutely no financial interest in X-Plane whatsoever. He switched from FSX to X-Plane without even reconsidering.

I know another pilot who has about 1500 hours in a Saab 340B and he thinks it's a no brainer. X-Plane represents flight a lot better than FSX.

 

So really, you can claim that "blade element theory" ( in the context of flight dynamics) is going to out perform my Real Air (FSX) SF260, Lancair legacy, & Baytower RV7...........all you want to. I know better. So NO, I will not respect your claim of "blade theory" superiority, and will always challenge, if required.

 

Great! Whatever floats your boat. If that is the case, then I have no idea why you continue to even use X-Plane if it's that inferior.

I'm not looking for anyone to challenge my opinions, or anyone elses. I do think it's admirable that you are taking on this crusade of which flight model is better for a flight sim. I just don't think it's worth getting so patriotic about. But hey, if you have the time, why not.

I assume it's acceptable, that no matter how many hours you have in flying, I will not respect your opinion either. I believe figures. Not opinions. And if you don't want to respect my opinion, it really is no skin off my nose. It hasn't changed my views by even a micron, and I would rather believe the opinions of the pilots I know, who hold ATPL's and have been flying commercially for over 15 years.

 

On the other hand, you seem to have a problem with my opinion, that neither method is superior. You'll always state that XP flight dynamics are the more superior & accurate method. And it doesn't seem to matter what anyone else has to say............experienced or not. What you wrote above about Mr. Applegate's opinion, says just that.

 

L.Adamson

 

On the contrary. I have absolutely no problem with your opinion because, to me, it holds less value than other people I know.

What I have a problem with is opinions based on lies. GA pilots claiming to know what an airliner is supposed to fly like as opposed to actually experiencing flying an airliner.

Again, I ask you to re-read my statement regarding Geof's opinion. I'm not interested in it at this present moment. I wasn't addressing him. He has already said he finds many things exceptional in X-Plane. I am addressing you. Someone who has never said 1 positive thing about x-plane, yet many negative things...but you fly both...so, in your mind, that gives you some kind of excuse to criticize X-Plane and somehow believe you can do that without any kind of response from those who actually ENJOY it.

Please read my first statement again. I said I wan't interested in Geof's opinion at this present time. I am interested in your opinion about x-planes flight model. All you have said in these forums is how bad it is. Then you try to justify yourself by saying "I fly X-Plane and FSX."

 

Since when, have I said anything about how bad it is? As far as a few airline pilots flying X-Plane, big deal. I know a lot of airline pilots who don't fly desk top sims at all. In fact, the majority of pilots that I've asked, at flyins, banquets, pilot forums, etc..................don't fly flight sims. They just simply never got into it. They wouldn't know if it's fun, entertaining, or beneficial to their career. We also know of airline pilots who have the interest in MSFS, as well as designing for it. So... I'll call that a wash. And yes, I do "sim" fly XP & MSFS. I'll soon be out of the "real" pilot scenario. Sim flying will be my only future, aviation related, unless I get back into R/C. I can only hope that these sims continue to improve. Perhaps even that one the Jcomm always talks about...

 

L.Adamson

Since when, have I said anything about how bad it is? As far as a few airline pilots flying X-Plane, big deal. I know a lot of airline pilots who don't fly desk top sims at all. In fact, the majority of pilots that I've asked, at flyins, banquets, pilot forums, etc..................don't fly flight sims. They just simply never got into it. They wouldn't know if it's fun, entertaining, or beneficial to their career. We also know of airline pilots who have the interest in MSFS, as well as designing for it. So... I'll call that a wash. And yes, I do "sim" fly XP & MSFS. I'll soon be out of the "real" pilot scenario. Sim flying will be my only future, aviation related, unless I get back into R/C. I can only hope that these sims continue to improve. Perhaps even that one the Jcomm always talks about...

 

L.Adamson

 

Of course. Who would listen to an airline pilots opinion about flight simulation? What was I thinking??

We need more GA pilot opinions.

Of course. Who would listen to an airline pilots opinion about flight simulation? What was I thinking??

We need more GA pilot opinions.

 

Of course! All airline pilots have owned & flown Beechcraft Bonanzas & Barons, and remember exactly what it felt like. Why ask a GA pilot who owned one? And naturally, all airline pilots are very precise, and practice weekly, with their aerobatic abilities, don't they ??? Speaking of aerobatics, I did share a hangar with a airline pilot who doe's actually own a radial powered oversize Pitts, and does teach aerobatics. But..............most airline pilots really don't get into that upside down, high G routine. And then there are those airline pilots who really get into flying past their day job. They build & fly "experimentals", or get into back country bush flight. I know a lot of them too. Remember, I'm an old guy.

 

What I do know, is that long time airline pilots have somewhat forgotten the basics of small GA flying. It's just how it is. Some do both, and some just fly that big stuff. Some get bored with their jobs, and some still love it.

 

L.Adamson

I can respect that you want to see varying opinions before making a decision on whether or not to get the sim. I can also understand that a biased opinion in favor of X-Plane might not be useful to you. The problem is that there is a bit of a history between the individual in question and this particular forum.

 

Having read the intervening posts since I originally posted this, I've come to the conclusion that I'd respect LAdamson's opinion over anyone else's. No matter how much I might want to like XPlane, people like GoranM are making it very difficult.

 

I can read a review of a product that doesn't cast it in a very positive light, and still buy that product. If the reviewer is obviously biased against it, or perhaps complains bitterly about missing features that I don't care about, I take away whatever facts there are and ignore the opinions.

 

I can also read any number of gushing reviews and come away thinking a product is garbage. I won't mention any names, but it's not XPlane.

 

What I need is some in-depth discussion of various features, plus what is present and what is missing that I might require. I don't care what a reviewer thinks of a product, all I want to know is why I might want to buy it, and what I need to know before I do. The advantage of LAdamson is that he's telling me things I need to know. GoranM isn't.

 

To take this a little farther from home, so as not to step on any XPlane toes, It was a very long time before I found out Prepar3D didn't have a start-up screen. No one ever mentioned it. If I'd bought the thing and found out afterwards, I'd have been pretty upset. Yes, I know there's now a third party start screen. It has other problems (like the ATC menu for example) that I didn't find out about until later as well. But I found out about crashes early, and that prevented me from buying it.

 

Contrast with Microsoft Flight. I knew going in that it was only Hawaii. I didn't like this one bit, but accepted it and enjoyed Fight. If I'd bought into the product then found out it was the one place on simulated earth that I don't like to fly, I would have been bitter indeed, and it would have shown in every forum of which I'm a member.

 

When I was looking at AeroflyFS, it looked really good, even if the description said it was only one country. Then I saw some evidence in a video that there was no inertia, although the video didn't point this out. I haven't flown a sim with no inertia in... 15 years? Then I saw it mentioned on a forum. We'll wait a bit on that one, although the list of aircraft looked like it was what Flight wanted to be when it grew up.

 

LAdamson is not bashing XPlane, and it's a tribute to him that he's not bashing it in an effort to defend against his opponents here. He is NOT bashing XPlane. In a way, he's doing you a service.

 

Which flies better? Far as I'm concerned, until I get in the cockpit, they fly identically. And neither can hold a candle to Microsoft Flight's FDE. And even then, no matter how good Flight's model is, I'm still flying FSX these days.

 

On topic, the superior cloud rendition may or may not be. The whole "burnt clouds" thing is an attempt to show shadow at the bottom of clouds, and it doesn't appear to work out very well. I'm not worried about stuff like that, just report it and move on and it will be improved eventually. Pretty much the same with XPlane in other areas. That's fine with me, I'll wait. It wouldn't prevent me from buying the product if it met my needs in other areas.

 

While I've decided XPlane isn't for me at the current time, I'm watching it closely beacuse at some point I believe it will be.

 

Hook

Most people looking for something new aren't looking for okay when they've spent thousands giving their average girlfriends thousand dollar plastic, lasik and dental surgery

 

Really? Did you do that? Wow!

Most people looking for something new aren't looking for okay when they've spent thousands...

 

Seems to me if someone spent thousands of dollars on something and are looking for something similar but new, those thousands were probably a bad investment. I'd encourage anyone not willing to part with their amassed addon library to stick with FSX or P3D. There is nothing X-Plane has to offer that would interest you.

Seems to me if someone spent thousands of dollars on something and are looking for something similar but new, those thousands were probably a bad investment.

 

Oh, I dunno... I've spent thousands on a car and was still looking for something new several years later. And I'd spend thousands on the new one as well. It's just either the old one is no longer serviceable, or the new one will have to offer things the old one didn't. And in the end, people will upgrade simply because they want to... other reasons don't really matter. Ask any salesman.

 

Hook

X-Plane default weather will and should look better than FSX Default as it is a much newer product. X-Plane needs to ditch OpenGl and make its next product DX11 so it can make use of Tessellation, which if you read up on you will understand how much of a change it would bring to a sim world. That being said......

 

Try comparing to FSX with REX+Essentials Overdrive 4096x4096 clouds using the OPUSFSX weather engine, using these 2 products in FSX will give you an almost truly realistic "white-out" sense and well yeah, sim realism pretty much achieved.

 

However Battlefield 3's Going Hunting mission still has the best cloud run through I have seen in a game yet, imagine Battlefield 3 optimization and graphics in a simulator environment.....

 

 

 

Of course. Who would listen to an airline pilots opinion about flight simulation? What was I thinking??

We need more GA pilot opinions.

 

Is this the same ga instructor that told you a light ga should not be flown in 9-12 knt winds? 2000 hours? -he is a baby!

For the sake of xplane get real !

 

Your attacks on anyone who finds any flaw in xplane, blaming experienced ga pilots for making observations just are silly-pure and simple-other than we can understand you have a commercial interest.

 

I don't want to hit below the belt but the above posts are warrant it.

 

 

Is this the same ga instructor that told you a light ga should not be flown in 9-12 knt winds? 2000 hours? -he is a baby!

For the sake of xplane get real !

 

Your attacks on anyone who finds any flaw in xplane, blaming experienced ga pilots for making observations just are silly-pure and simple-other than we can understand you have a commercial interest.

 

 

 

That is what the reaction is here. From any.I think the clouds on both sims leave much to be desirered but your statements make the truth meters go off the scales-and I will be glad to continue if you continue to push on facts that simply are not correct. Why do you Mae it so hard to be an xplane defender while at the sar time point out flaws? Is your real interest in making xplane better-or does commercial interest consume you?

 

 

 

Is this the same ga instructor that told you a light ga should not be flown in 9-12 knt winds? 2000 hours? -he is a baby!

For the sake of xplane get real !

 

Your attacks on anyone who finds any flaw in xplane, blaming experienced ga pilots for making observations just are silly-pure and simple-other than we can understand you have a commercial interest.

 

I don't want to hit below the belt but the above posts are leading me to.

 

No. It is not the same instructor. The instructor that told me I shouldn't take off in 12kt or greater crosswinds actually owns the flying school. He's been in business for the last 18 years.

The flying instructor that has 2000 hours, has those 2000 hours in a Saab 340B. That does not include the hours he accumulated to get his ATPL, his instructor hours, his ATR 72 hours, his GA hours and whatever else he did to get the total hours he has.

 

And I am not attacking anyone. I'm responding to the attacks. I have acknowledged X-Planes flaws. For some reason, you seem to ignore that. How you interpret my responses is up to you. If you want to take it to a place I never intend for it to go, that's up to you, also.

Geof, if you want to stoop to "hitting below the belt", by all means, go right ahead. As far as I am concerned, you already did. I, however, will not and don't intend to.

Do as you will.

I will be glad to stop -but trust me below the belt can go further when it comes to truth and if you continue to push with distortions I will go further-because some of us have no vested interest and are interested in truth only.