As I've been learning about the sophisticated automation provided by the FMC/MCP/AT from almost takeoff to touchdown in a/c like the 737 NGX, it has occurred to me that there also might be some negatives. For example, how difficult is it for airline flight crews to stay proficient at hand flying the a/c? I understand the crew is constantly making decisions on how and what the FMC/MCP/AT are doing, but it would seem the time with hands on the yoke and throttle is minimal during a typical flight. I know the pilots have to pass proficiency check rides, so do the airlines have programs or requirements for ensuring crews get the "hands on" time they need, e.g., so many hand flown ILS approaches per month or something similar?

Al

I saw/heard somewhere that Delta is strongly encouraging pilots to hand fly approaches and traffic patterns on days with good weather. Aside from whatever SOP's airlines have, I would imagine that the pilots enjoy hand flying approaches and manually landing.

I don't know about the airlines, but I know the Navy/Marine Airwings have some pretty stringent and detailed requirements for hand-flown proficiency. So many patterns, so many break patterns, so many carrier landings, so many night landings, ashore and afloat, etc etc etc, per month. The pilots take every opportunity to "fill in the squares" whenever they can, referring to the little square in their training records used to monitor such things.

Given the cut-backs and budget considerations, this isn't always easy to do, and a pilot may regain a monthly currancy, just in time to have it required again the next day, due to a new month!

 

I DO know United used to require checkrides and simulator training every six months. I have no idea about nowadays though...

Pat☺

I saw/heard somewhere that Delta is strongly encouraging pilots to hand fly approaches and traffic patterns on days with good weather. Aside from whatever SOP's airlines have, I would imagine that the pilots enjoy hand flying approaches and manually landing.

 

By far.

 

Keep in mind that all the people on here that enjoy punching buttons and letting the autoland do all the work in FSX are not professional pilots. Real pilots prefer to fly approaches and land by hand, unless environmental conditions dictate otherwise

 

-john paul.

Well, I hope to eventually become a pilot in real life, haha. I am still in high school but at least in FSX, I only use AP above 20,000 ft on the climb out and until about 5,000 and always hand fly the approaches.

By far.

 

Keep in mind that all the people on here that enjoy punching buttons and letting the autoland do all the work in FSX are not professional pilots. Real pilots prefer to fly approaches and land by hand, unless environmental conditions dictate otherwise

 

-john paul.

 

The general  ethos is to hand fly whenever workload permits.  Now that is easier said then done! Nearly all 

Captains I speak to say they 'do not' want to see someone hand flying in busy airspace showing of his/her hand flying skills, all it does is increase workload for the PM.

 

Two doors down from me in my Bahrain residence lives a Gulf Air A330/320 F/O.  Last time we had a beer he mentioned he likes to disconnect A/THR & A/P at TOD and hand fly the entire descent & approach.    That's great,  however I know a lot of people that wouldn't be happy with that.

 

In the sim you are expected to demonstrate raw data hand flying single engine approaches and departures every six months.  Out here at least you can request sim time to brush up on anything.  

 

Lately I have joined the camp that believes line flying with a few hundred people in the back is not the best time to brush up on your hand flying skills.  

The general ethos is to hand fly whenever workload permits. Now that is easier said then done! Nearly all

Captains I speak to say they 'do not' want to see someone hand flying in busy airspace showing of his/her hand flying skills, all it does is increase workload for the PM.

 

Two doors down from me in my Bahrain residence lives a Gulf Air A330/320 F/O. Last time we had a beer he mentioned he likes to disconnect A/THR & A/P at TOD and hand fly the entire descent & approach. That's great, however I know a lot of people that wouldn't be happy with that.

 

In the sim you are expected to demonstrate raw data hand flying single engine approaches and departures every six months. Out here at least you can request sim time to brush up on anything.

 

Lately I have joined the camp that believes line flying with a few hundred people in the back is not the best time to brush up on your hand flying skills.

Why do you feel that way? There is nothing unsafe about hand flying the jet if the pilot of the Asian 777 had more hand flying experience maybe the crash wouldn't have happened.

The SFO crash had everything to do with poor CRM, failure to follow company SOP & obey stable approach criteria, fatigue, being slam dunked by SFO ATC & a lack of understanding of A/T modes.

 

The captain being checked out was experienced, he wasn't some P2F kid with rich parents.  He had plenty of hands on experience with multiple aircraft...

 

I am not saying hand flying is unsafe.  I am saying it increases workload for everyone up front.  The big issue is training, this subject runs very deep.

Just out of curiosity.....what part of "experienced" equates with "a lack of understanding of A/T modes"?

Just out of curiosity.....what part of "experienced" equates with "a lack of understanding of A/T modes"?

He was new on type Christopher.. He was also a DEC.  Next time you fly on holiday keep in mind the Captain up front may have zero hours on type.  Perfectly normal.

He had just (been ) converted from 744 to 777, IIRC, The system 'traps' are quite different.

being slam dunked by SFO ATC

I would hardly call it "being slam dunked".  The PF was aware that SFO tends to hold the aircraft higher than normal which results in a high energy decent rather late in the approach. It was even gone over in the transition ground school the PF attended where they specifically pointed out that tendency of SFO's ATC.  When Asiana tried to bring up the "high energy descent" as a contributing factor, Boeing said, "But they already knew that was going to happen well before turning onto final!"

 

If you want to point to the place where that approach went south, it was when the PF selected FLCH after they had already adjusted the MCP altitude to the Missed Approach altitude. The plane started throttling up and climbing to the MAP altitude even though they were still above the glideslope.  Once that happened, there was no way they were going to be stabilized at by 500 AGL and so they should have performed a go around.

 

Both pilots deny pressing the FLCH switch (the PF says he only "thought about" using FLCH but didn't actually press it) and Asiana tried to say that the mode activated all by itself, but the CVR has a distinct sound of a switch being pressed right at the time FLCH was activated.

One more thing   Hand flying an aircraft following the Flight directors is not difficult in most situations. Modern aircraft are designed to be very easy to fly.

 

  The reason I bring up training & sim time is because the big issue is when the A/P dumps the machine back on your lap and say's 'sorry I can't fix this situation'  

 

Take a look at the bulk of modern airline accidents due to pilot error . It is mainly down to the man machine interface and having to quickly recover from a unusual situation.

 

 Upset training in the sim is a big focus, hand flying the STAR in CAVOK wont help you.

I would hardly call it "being slam dunked".  The PF was aware that SFO tends to hold the aircraft higher than normal which results in a high energy decent rather late in the approach. It was even gone over in the transition ground school the PF attended where they specifically pointed out that tendency of SFO's ATC.  When Asiana tried to bring up the "high energy descent" as a contributing factor, Boeing said, "But they already knew that was going to happen well before turning onto final!"

 

I would have to disagree every Captain & F/O I know that operates ULR into SFO call it a slam dunk approach.

 

Anyway, I am not making excuses for the Asiana crew. They screwed up on all levels!

I work for a company whos Metroliners have NO autopilot. So for your taxi/commuter ops theres generally a lot more hand flying to be done. I like to think that when i get to a major airline eventually i will keep the hand flying up. 

 

Hey Rob, do you tend to fly the ILS by hand atleast as long as workload permits it? I have the feeling a lot of pilots just select AP off below 1000 ft or so, not really my style (situational depending obviously) 

 

Cheers

Oops my browser crashed whilst typing a reply! I don't fly commercially Dutchman.  Something I do hear mentioned often is the fear of the QAR (Quick access recorder)  Sadly this has developed a culture of A/P on asap and disconnect once stable on the ILS.

 

That is a whole different issue up for debate, but sadly a reality in modern aviation.

 

Regards