Sign in to follow this  
mrvoyager

Disabling Fly By Wire?

Recommended Posts

Is there a way I can disable the fly by wire? I am not liking it, it messes with my hand flying too much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

The 777 uses FBW to control the control surfaces, so I'm not sure what you mean by disabling the FBW system because that will mean you have no control over the aircraft. You could try reverting to Secondary Mode as some say it helps in correcting the issues present in the current FBW system in the PMDG 777, but SP1 is coming soon and that should fix your problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SP1 is not going to fix FBW problems in the way people seem to think. The RTM version is actually too easy to handfly because you never have to trim. You'll have to worry about trimming in SP1, which if you asks me makes it more difficult than it was in the RTM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SP1 is not going to fix FBW problems in the way people seem to think. The RTM version is actually too easy to handfly because you never have to trim. You'll have to worry about trimming in SP1, which if you asks me makes it more difficult than it was in the RTM.

To be honest I think it will be easier without the speed trim because as it is the system is a little slow, at least slower than an airbus at correcting so for example if I want to lower the pitch a little I have to then pull on the yoke to keep it leveled unlike the x extended which reacts fast and leaves it where you centered the yoke, but actually I think it might be a characteristic of the aircrafts aerodynamic and not the system itself. Another thing that bothers me a little is how fast and far the manual trim goes, the ngx has a smoother level change, so I have to be taping the pitch keys in combination with yoke movements to get the aircraft stable, but I don't have to do that with the ngx, I find it a lot better to handle in that regard.

The 777 uses FBW to control the control surfaces, so I'm not sure what you mean by disabling the FBW system because that will mean you have no control over the aircraft. You could try reverting to Secondary Mode as some say it helps in correcting the issues present in the current FBW system in the PMDG 777, but SP1 is coming soon and that should fix your problems.

Interesting, how do I do that? I am pretty sure every boeing can shut down the fby system like the 787. I really don't like how the computer feels with this one, I prefer full manual like the ngx (even thou I have noticed some auto pitch trimming with the autopilot off).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 777 does not have a manual backup, the FBW system is always active. You can turn the protections and stuff off by turning off the primary flight computers on the overhead but that's not going to make it fly like a 737NG.

 

Just wait for SP1 - it handles much more like a normal airplane. Everything about it is changed and rebuilt from scratch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 777 does not have a manual backup, the FBW system is always active. You can turn the protections and stuff off by turning off the primary flight computers on the overhead but that's not going to make it fly like a 737NG.

 

Just wait for SP1 - it handles much more like a normal airplane. Everything about it is changed and rebuilt from scratch.

As I love to handfly a lot and enjoy a challenge, may need to trim a bit more as I dont trim a lot :(, but waiting for the SP1 seems to be the hardest part. Hope its relased this month. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify a bit: FlybyWire just only means there is no physical connection between the yoke and the rudder/airleron/elevator. The movemend of the yoke is put into a computer and the actuators are activated via electrical cable. So it is really impossible to "deactivate fbw".

 

The designers of the FBW system (especially those wo made the F-16 and later A320) used the system to do some things automatically: protection for stalling/ overspeed/g-load where the computer does not what the PF commanded. Also they included a system called autotrim. The airplane trims automatically to fly the attitude and turnangle the pilot commanded. This reduced workload (at least that was the plan I think). I do not know why but nowadays when someone say's FBW he means this autotrim feature.

 

The T7 is designed to fly like the "classic" airplanes with physical connections so no autotrim is *implemented.

 

*there is an autotrim feature implemented but it does follow the flightpath. You'll feel this when extending Flaps in a T7 versus a A320 where the latter "floats".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest I think it will be easier without the speed trim because as it is the system is a little slow, at least slower than an airbus at correcting so for example if I want to lower the pitch a little I have to then pull on the yoke to keep it leveled unlike the x extended which reacts fast and leaves it where you centered the yoke, but actually I think it might be a characteristic of the aircrafts aerodynamic and not the system itself. Another thing that bothers me a little is how fast and far the manual trim goes, the ngx has a smoother level change, so I have to be taping the pitch keys in combination with yoke movements to get the aircraft stable, but I don't have to do that with the ngx, I find it a lot better to handle in that regard.

Interesting, how do I do that? I am pretty sure every boeing can shut down the fby system like the 787. I really don't like how the computer feels with this one, I prefer full manual like the ngx (even thou I have noticed some auto pitch trimming with the autopilot off).

 

Just throwing it out here, but the 777 isn't an Airbus...and therefore, won't fly like one.  That's like buying a Ford F350 and complaining that it doesn't drive like a Toyota Tundra.  And while Aerosoft did a good job with the X Extended, it's hardly in the same category as the 777X...and to try to compare the 2 is silly.

 

As far as the NGX is concerned; the 737 is by no means FBW.  The only thing on a NG that could be remotely considered FBW is the FADEC system.  With that being said, the 777 and the 737NG are 2 completely different airplanes that will handle completely different.  Again, you can't get into a Gulfstream V and expect it to handle like a C172.  It just doesn't work that way. 

 

Now, the pilot can override the FBW system on the 777, but to completely disable it would require pulling breakers...and to disable the FBW system would defeat the purpose of having a realistic 777 simulation...and would leave you in a pretty uncontrollable situation.

 

I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would spend close to $100 on a realistic simulation and want to change things to make it unrealistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would spend close to $100 on a realistic simulation and want to change things to make it unrealistic.

 

 

Because they think it is wrongly simulated but aren't able to fully read and more important understand the included manuals. That's why, it's scaring me Kyle is going to morph into a carebear himself.  :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 777 does not have a manual backup, the FBW system is always active. You can turn the protections and stuff off by turning off the primary flight computers on the overhead but that's not going to make it fly like a 737NG.

 

Just wait for SP1 - it handles much more like a normal airplane. Everything about it is changed and rebuilt from scratch.

 

As far as I understood from this message that the flight model implemented in 777-200LR and F versions is not as realistic as we have been thinking or expriencing. Do you intend to say this? I know that in flight simulators flight model can be developed by service packs or updates but could you please give a percentage of the flight model that we use now? Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


As far as I understood from this message that the flight model implemented in 777-200LR and F versions is not as realistic as we have been thinking or expriencing. Do you intend to say this?

 

Correct.  This has already been stated multiple times by the team here on the forum.

 

 

 


I know that in flight simulators flight model can be developed by service packs or updates but could you please give a percentage of the flight model that we use now?

 

It's not a matter of percentage.  It's not like they released a 50% correct version when it released and are developing the other 50%.

 

 

 


That's why, it's scaring me Kyle is going to morph into a carebear himself. 

 

Does this mean I would be more or less cuddly?  :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 777 does not have a manual backup, the FBW system is always active. You can turn the protections and stuff off by turning off the primary flight computers on the overhead but that's not going to make it fly like a 737NG.

 

Just wait for SP1 - it handles much more like a normal airplane. Everything about it is changed and rebuilt from scratch.

Oh thats so nice to hear! Then I bet its going to be awesome, really looking forward to it, its the only aspect that is preventing me from completely falling in love with it :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would spend close to $100 on a realistic simulation and want to change things to make it unrealistic.

 

Fantastic...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing it out here, but the 777 isn't an Airbus...and therefore, won't fly like one.  That's like buying a Ford F350 and complaining that it doesn't drive like a Toyota Tundra.  And while Aerosoft did a good job with the X Extended, it's hardly in the same category as the 777X...and to try to compare the 2 is silly.

 

As far as the NGX is concerned; the 737 is by no means FBW.  The only thing on a NG that could be remotely considered FBW is the FADEC system.  With that being said, the 777 and the 737NG are 2 completely different airplanes that will handle completely different.  Again, you can't get into a Gulfstream V and expect it to handle like a C172.  It just doesn't work that way. 

 

Now, the pilot can override the FBW system on the 777, but to completely disable it would require pulling breakers...and to disable the FBW system would defeat the purpose of having a realistic 777 simulation...and would leave you in a pretty uncontrollable situation.

 

I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would spend close to $100 on a realistic simulation and want to change things to make it unrealistic.

I know but I was just pointing out my opinion that there is something off with the autotrim, which I guess will be fixed, where I notice that its slightly unprecise and slow and also the manual trimming (with the joystick buttons) feel too jerky so one has to be taping it and still the plane changes too much so its difficult to establish a stable pitch specially when chaging, so overall I find this 777 a little hard to handfly. Even thou the NGX has no autotrim I feel its much easier to fly even thou it responds quicker to yoke movement. Just an opinion, but obviously this wont be noticed much when taking off or when doing an autoland, but me I like to just handfly sometimes.

Fantastic...

I wasn't talking about the systems but more on the behaviour of them, which is very difficult to simulate. Let me ask you, how do you know the handling and aerodynamics and the interaction of the autotrim are highly realistic when non of us has even touched the controls of a real 777? Not saying its not realistic, but the handling of the autotrim and the manual pitch don't seem right for such a modern and very well made airliner, which PMDG agrees since they are making the SP1 for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know but I was just pointing out my opinion that there is something off with the autotrim, which I guess will be fixed, where I notice that its slightly unprecise and slow and also the manual trimming (with the joystick buttons) feel too jerky so one has to be taping it and still the plane changes too much so its difficult to establish a stable pitch specially when chaging, so overall I find this 777 a little hard to handfly. Even thou the NGX has no autotrim I feel its much easier to fly even thou it responds quicker to yoke movement. Just an opinion, but obviously this wont be noticed much when taking off or when doing an autoland, but me I like to just handfly sometimes.

I wasn't talking about the systems but more on the behaviour of them, which is very difficult to simulate. Let me ask you, how do you know the handling and aerodynamics and the interaction of the autotrim are highly realistic when non of us has even touched the controls of a real 777? Not saying its not realistic, but the handling of the autotrim and the manual pitch don't seem right for such a modern and very well made airliner, which PMDG agrees since they are making the SP1 for it.

I was referring to this comment:

 

I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would spend close to $100 on a realistic simulation and want to change things to make it unrealistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they think it is wrongly simulated but aren't able to fully read and more important understand the included manuals. That's why, it's scaring me Kyle is going to morph into a carebear himself.  :P

Sorry, some of us cannot afford those awesome manuals and too much screen reading gives me headaches, so I go with the tutorials and soon with the help of fs2crew :D

 

By the way it seems PMDG ran out of copies for every manual or my browser is not working well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know but I was just pointing out my opinion that there is something off with the autotrim, which I guess will be fixed, where I notice that its slightly unprecise and slow and also the manual trimming (with the joystick buttons) feel too jerky so one has to be taping it and still the plane changes too much so its difficult to establish a stable pitch specially when chaging, so overall I find this 777 a little hard to handfly. Even thou the NGX has no autotrim I feel its much easier to fly even thou it responds quicker to yoke movement. Just an opinion, but obviously this wont be noticed much when taking off or when doing an autoland, but me I like to just handfly sometimes.

 

If anything, the auto-trim works too well, and too quickly.  It has been my experience that it stays where you point it without variance.  If I want to command 5° nose up, I pull back until I see 5°, let go, and it stays there.  Is this realistic behavior?  I don't know...I'm a 737 guy, but it doesn't seem exactly realistic as there are always physical elements counteracting the command (wx, momentum, gravity, etc.)  Regardless, Ryan has already stated that it has been rewritten for sp1, so let's see how that works before tying anybody to the stake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 777 does not have a manual backup, the FBW system is always active. You can turn the protections and stuff off by turning off the primary flight computers on the overhead but that's not going to make it fly like a 737NG.

 

Just wait for SP1 - it handles much more like a normal airplane. Everything about it is changed and rebuilt from scratch.

I am now wondering if there is a different key to use the elevator trim bar as opposed to the yoke buttons since the bar has a smoother and constant movement so it would be better, I would like to assign the trim to the bar but I am guessing it cannot be done.

 

P.S. I just found out it can be done but it has to be an axis right? :(

 

P.P.S. I just found how to make it better by adjusting the repeat slider  :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, some of us cannot afford those awesome manuals and too much screen reading gives me headaches, so I go with the tutorials and soon with the help of fs2crew :D

 

By the way it seems PMDG ran out of copies for every manual or my browser is not working well.

 

Just watch into the pmdg operations manager, select 777 and click manuals. You can afford the money to read them because you've paid them already.  ^_^

 

Does this mean I would be more or less cuddly?   :wub:

 

 
Dear... YES. It really improves your cuteness :-D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anything, the auto-trim works too well, and too quickly.  It has been my experience that it stays where you point it without variance.  If I want to command 5° nose up, I pull back until I see 5°, let go, and it stays there.  Is this realistic behavior?  I don't know...I'm a 737 guy, but it doesn't seem exactly realistic as there are always physical elements counteracting the command (wx, momentum, gravity, etc.)  Regardless, Ryan has already stated that it has been rewritten for sp1, so let's see how that works before tying anybody to the stake.

I'm a 737 guy too and cannot understand it because I know the 777 is better but it just doesn't feel as great to fly, but I think its just because of how they are made in real life and nothing to do with the sim.

 

Just watch into the pmdg operations manager, select 777 and click manuals. You can afford the money to read them because you've paid them already.  ^_^

 

 
Dear... YES. It really improves your cuteness :-D

 

I know I have the pdf's but I just can't read much from a screen, gives me headaches. Wish I had a few of the printed manuals, would read the whole thing .... maybe one day, I can dream :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anything, the auto-trim works too well, and too quickly.  It has been my experience that it stays where you point it without variance.  If I want to command 5° nose up, I pull back until I see 5°, let go, and it stays there.  Is this realistic behavior?  I don't know...I'm a 737 guy, but it doesn't seem exactly realistic as there are always physical elements counteracting the command (wx, momentum, gravity, etc.)  Regardless, Ryan has already stated that it has been rewritten for sp1, so let's see how that works before tying anybody to the stake.

 

No, it was not correct in the RTM version. In SP1, if airspeed changes, you will need to trim manually unless on autopilot - period. The system will pitch the airplane back toward the previous trim reference speed. There's a very detailed writeup of how the system works in the SP1 Supplement that's at the end of the revised Introduction manual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to disconnect the Fly-By-Wire you can try moving the primary flight computer switch to DISCONNECT (the switch is next to the TAC) now it will effectively fly like a 737. You will lose a lot of features but it will now fly like a more conventional aircraft.


The B777 Fly-By-Wire (FBW) system introduces some very new concepts to the art of flying while maintaining the traditional look, and to some extent the feel, of that experience. The B777 Pitch Trim System is unique in the commercial world and if used as intended will not only enhance the pilot’s enjoyment of this remarkable airplane but also reduce his or her workload. Some of the differences from conventional trim systems are not fully understood and the purpose of this paper is to expand on this important area.

 

Throughout this paper it is assumed that the FBW system is operating in the Normal mode and that the pilot is flying manually.

 

The main concept to grasp right from the start is that the pilot only needs to TRIM FOR SPEED CHANGES. Performing maneuvers at constant speed does not call for further change. Once trimmed for a speed, say a 250 kt departure, you can level off, climb, turn, and level off again without ever touching the trim switches. During a Go-around maneuver (which should be flown at a constant speed of Vref + 5 kts) there should be no need to re-trim; perform the maneuver by adjusting the pitch and when flying away at (the same) ‘bug speed’ the aircraft will still be trimmed for this condition. Engine out work makes no change to this concept!

Similarly, on takeoff the Pitch Trim System follows the actual speed until stabilized. This means that if the pilot’s rotation is correct, stabilizing between V2 + 15 and V2 + 25 kts for two engines (or V2 and V2 + 15 kts for single engine); there is no need to trim until you change speed at flap retraction.

 

The Pitch Trim System trims at a constant 10 kts per second throughout the flight speed range, unless utilizing the ‘blip’ to trim function when nearly trimmed. Remember from your basic flight training the idea of “Put the aircraft where you want it, then trim out the residual forces?’ Well, it works just as well in the B777 as it did in the light trainer aircraft. If you find yourself flying through the trimmer or constantly ‘blipping’ to find the trimmed condition then you are misusing the system. It is quite possible to put the aircraft directly in trim at a first attempt without using the ‘blip’ facility.

 

The ‘blip’ facility is a difficult one to grasp, especially since there is no direct readout of Trim Reference Speed (TRS) or the 5 kt speed range band. Once the TRS is within 5 kts of ACTUAL speed a ‘blip’ will synchronize the TRS to ACTUAL speed. The ‘blip’ facility cannot sync to bug speed, unless actual and bug speed are co-incidental (again, put the aircraft where you want it, then trim out residual forces). The question is: How do you know when you’re within the 5 kt band? Well, you don’t precisely and this is where some confusion arises. Usually if you feel the aircraft is ‘almost’ in trim then you’ll be within ‘blip’ range. If not, a ‘blip’ will only move the TRS at the 10 kt per second rate, i.e., perhaps 1, 2, or 3 kts. This may or may not be enough to put the aircraft in trim; since if the 1, 2, or 3 kt move puts the TRS within 5 kts of actual speed the system will sync for you. If not then you have only moved the TRS a few kts towards the trimmed condition.

 

By way of example: Previous trimmed speed 180 kts, now flying at 160 kts – It is possible to bring the aircraft back into trim with a 2 second trim input. If however, at first attempt, you achieved say 168 kts TRS a ‘blip’ might only put the TRS to 166 kts, i.e., still not in trim. More likely you might have achieved a TRS of 164 kts at first attempt, and then the next ‘blip’ would sync the trim system.

 

Another important idea to grasp is that once trimmed for speed you should avoid ‘blipping’ the trim switches. At best you will achieve nothing, but you could actually put the aircraft out of trim. Since the TRS moves at a constant 10 kts per second, as mentioned above, the ‘blip’ you give to a trimmed aircraft moves the TRS away from the trimmed condition by ‘a few’ kts. If the TRS remains within 5 kts then the system will re-sync, however if your ‘blip’ was greater than ½ second the aircraft will then be out of trim. This is often observed on final approach, when pilots exacerbate speed and glideslope conflicts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Esbops, on 08 Jul 2014 - 6:19 PM, said:

 

 

As far as I understood from this message that the flight model implemented in 777-200LR and F versions is not as realistic as we have been thinking or expriencing. Do you intend to say this?

 

 

 

 

Correct. This has already been stated multiple times by the team here on the forum.

 

 

 

And by a dedicated few, myself included, prior to the team or anyone else realising it..

 

Thus, we deserve the ER free of charge as a thank you for being the catalyst for changes that render the PMDG 777 post SP1, the greatest add-on ever released.

 

:whistle:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would spend close to $100 on a realistic simulation and want to change things to make it unrealistic.

 

Well the real aircraft does not autotrim whatsoever, and the PMDG777 autotrim's incessantly, so that renders your entire point above, moot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this