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RW crew resource management

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Since getting the T7 I have become interested in long range procedures. would anyone know if when a crew man takes his break on say a 16 hour flight if he is being paid during that rest time or does he have to clock out seeing these guys are being paid well over 200$ an hour? Also is the same captain in charge if he is on break or is he relieved of all duties until his return? In other words would he be called back up in the event of an abnormality? Does the same crew that flies the departure also fly it to the gate or is there a complete crew rotation?

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generally the crew is paid for the entire flight whether they are in the actual pilot seat or not. The actual amount paid depends on the pilot contract. The captain is the only one making over $200/hr. All the first officers/relief first officers are making less than $200/hr.

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Please... Don't give the bean counters anymore ideas! Things are already bad enough ;-)

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I was given to understand though that the actual "paid time" begins at pushback and ends at engine shutdown. The hours spent getting ready to fly aren't paid, nor is the time spent in  debriefing...

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Thanks for the answers guys. What I'm really curious about is the command question. I wonder if one captain is in command the entire flight, or is he totally relieved on break. Would the decision for say a sick passenger diversion be his or the captain on duty at the time. I wonder if this would be company specific or ICAO regs. 

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I can only speak for our airline, but as far as I know, the PIC stays PIC, even when he is on a break. I know Air France has, or had, the same policy up to and including AF447. The PIC was on a break, though he was still PIC.

Whoever is up front, they are qualified pilots. They know what to do in urgent situations like a failure. Usually the decision to divert (which airport specifically for example) gets discussed with dispatch too, even a few short words will do.

In any case, a proper decent will last the better part of twenty minutes. That's time enough to get the guy up front, brief him on what happened and what has been decided so far, get his approval, and get down.

 

I know at some airlines, on long flights, it does happen that there's not always a captain in the flight deck, either. You could have a Senior FO in the left hand seat, and a Second Officer in the right hand seat during cruise (above FL200).

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Typically these days there is only one "Captain" on a crew, at least at US airlines.  Northwest once carried two Captains on their long haul crews, but this probably had as much to do with the fact that once at Tokyo that augmented crew became two regular crews, to roam the Orient for a few days before pairing up again to head for home as an augmented crew.

 

There is only one "pilot in command" at a time, regardless of qualification.  At my airline, where augmented crews consisted of one Captain and several type rated FO's, I was in command for the entire flight, even when I was in the bunk.  Any command decisions were referred to me.  This is probably the case just about everywhere.  It is based upon FAA regs and enshrined in company regs as well.

 

N4GIX is correct - pay is computed by the minute from block out to block in.  Everyone aboard, pilots and flight attendants, get paid for each of those minutes, at rates that obviously depend upon crew position, equipment (in the case of pilots) and longevity with the airline.  This is, of course, more for accountingn purposes than anything else, because as was mentioned, time spent preparing for a flight (and that could be more than an hour for long flights) is not part of pilot or F/A pay calculations.  The hourly rates in the contract are what they are in part to provide some phantom compensation for all of that "unpaid" time.

 

Some of the newer airlines have tried flat rate pay schemes, or even montly salaries, but for the most part that sort of thing has not worked out in the long run.  With the hourly (actually,as I indicated minute-ly) pay system, the onus is on the pilot to fly in order to get paid.  With flat rate systems, golf courses around the world might get crowded as pilots enjoy not having to hustle up some flying time to increase the bottom line!

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Thank you for the information. It's great to hear from those who have experienced what we simmers can only simulate. 

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To link up with Avallillo's post, I recall that one United 85 flight some years ago en route to Tokyo was being piloted by the relief crew when it suffered a rudder failure. The junior captain flying at that stage made the decision to divert to Anchorage but recalled the PIC, who assumed over all charge of the emergency.

 

I would assume that the pilots flying in the absence of the PIC would be granted broad decision making powers to select a course of action in the event of an emergency as seconds or minutes waiting for the PIC to return could be crucial in determining the outcome of the emergency.

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To link up with Avallillo's post, I recall that one United 85 flight some years ago en route to Tokyo was being piloted by the relief crew when it suffered a rudder failure. The junior captain flying at that stage made the decision to divert to Anchorage but recalled the PIC, who assumed over all charge of the emergency.

 

I would assume that the pilots flying in the absence of the PIC would be granted broad decision making powers to select a course of action in the event of an emergency as seconds or minutes waiting for the PIC to return could be crucial in determining the outcome of the emergency.

That was actually Northwest 85, not United.

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That was actually Northwest 85, not United.

 

Well spotted, and absolutely right, I stand corrected.

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I work with a major airline. For us, our captains can make up to 160/hr and get paid for flight time (Block in and out).

 

We sometimes have two captains up front. We never use an augmented crew for 3 pilots, but if we do it would be 2 captains and 1 FO.

 

Pilots now fly under FAR 117. What that means is the maximum flight time you'll see a pilot fly is 9 hours with 2 crew. They can take an extension but only if it's the result of unforseen incidents. That kind of caps the money that they can make.

 

Additionally we pay them even when they don't fly. They get paid if they sit standby and if we cancel their trip for training or an aircraft type swap, we still pay them the flight hour value of that trip.

 

We do screw them over a lot though, so it's not all roses and sunshine.

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We do screw them over a lot though, so it's not all roses and sunshine.

At least you're honest about it, I guess.

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Air Kevin? Oh snap. I remember you from the old FS2002.COM forums back in 2002'. I think my username was AirForceOne back then.

 

Good times.

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I was given to understand though that the actual "paid time" begins at pushback and ends at engine shutdown. The hours spent getting ready to fly aren't paid, nor is the time spent in  debriefing...

 

Hi there,

 

this kind of payment is indeed very common. In my company its a little different as we get paid for the time on duty which includes the check in /briefing time and 15 minutes after the last flight of the day, Means if im scheduled for 10 hours a day but catched major delays lets say 2 hours. I will get paid for 12 hours of duty time.

 

Concerning who is captain is pretty easy to answer. The pilot who is dedicated by his/her company and occupies the left hand seat is the PIC. Even in a check ride where 2 CPTs are in the cockpit.

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Air Kevin? Oh snap. I remember you from the old FS2002.COM forums back in 2002'. I think my username was AirForceOne back then.

 

Good times.

That would be ages ago, so I really don't remember too much of what happened back then, although that would have been 2003, as I didn't have FS2002 until the beginning of 2003. Still around, though I hardly have time to fly anymore, given my job out here.

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The seat is not the absolute governing factor, although the only exception I can think of would be a line qualification for a new Captain.  In that event, the check airman (always a Captain at my alma mater) is in command, of course, since the "Captain" in the left seat, while type rated, has not completed the IOE required under the regs. 

 

In actual practice at most airlines that use a bidding system based upon seniority (which is just about all US airlines, at any rate) the crew positions are bid positions.  The PIC is the Captain who was awarded the Captain bid for that trip that month.  There are instances, usually at the beginning of a downturn/furlough cycle, when a qualified and current Captain can no longer hold a Captain bid and must revert to holding an FO bid.  In this relatively rare circumstance you might find two qualified and current (on the equipment) Captains flying together.  The PIC is the one who was awarded the Captain bid for that trip.  The other fellow is the FO and is paid as an FO unless some other section of the contract is in play, such as pay protection.  (The sections of contracts governing pay can be mind bogglingly complicated!  It took a school several weeks long to train new crew schedulers about the pay and credit sections of the pilot agreement.  Most pilots are not intimately familiar with all of the provisions!)

 

At my alama mater, the PIC was also indicated on the flight plan.  FAA regs require this - all flight plans, even a VFR plan for a Cessna, require the name of the PIC. 

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