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G7USL

After flying a full motion sim.

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For my 73rd Birthday treat I flew the 737-800ng simulator here https://plus.google.com/115408563554081290929/photos?gl=uk&hl=en  and quickly realised that, the real thing is nothing like I thought it was.

 

The rudder and flight yoke was extremely sensitive and a lot more than the hardware we are all used to.   I use the Saitek Yoke and pedals at home and as soon as I reached home again I adjusted ALL my controls to very sensitive and it has made a lot of improvement for me.

 

I would strongly advise others to do the same.

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G"day Dave,

 

I've spent about 4 hours total in a full motion airline 737-800 sim and have to say I agree. Despite years of flying the PMDG 737's this was nothing like it. The feeling of hand flying was different, but so was the concept of operating the systems. Its very different when you're sitting in the real thing.

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Please remember that even full motion Level D simulators are more sensitive than the real aircraft. The simulators differ from facility to facility also, so for example, you can go to ABC FlightSafety and train on the 737-800 then for recurrent 6 months later go to XYZ FlightSafety and train on the 737-800 and have a totally different experience. The systems should work exactly the same but the feeling will be different. Simulators have "Sim-isms" they're a little crazy at times :)

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How sensitive? Anything that you can quantify so we can understand and try to match it in our simulators...

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G"day Dave,

 

I've spent about 4 hours total in a full motion airline 737-800 sim and have to say I agree. Despite years of flying the PMDG 737's this was nothing like it. The feeling of hand flying was different, but so was the concept of operating the systems. Its very different when you're sitting in the real thing.

 

After you flew the full motion, did you make any changes to your home sim?  Was there something about the way it handled that you think is not modelled so well in your home sim?  Momentum...thrust...?

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How sensitive? Anything that you can quantify so we can understand and try to match it in our simulators...

Yes, how much sensitive? Via FSUIPC I suppose....

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If only we can have yokes with proper artificial feel systems....I always felt that the hardware yoke is the biggest limitation in terms of realism in flightsim.

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If only we can have yokes with proper artificial feel systems....I always felt that the hardware yoke is the biggest limitation in terms of realism in flightsim.

 

The one thing I would suggest, no matter what yoke you have, is to go to youtube and look for videos for the airplane that you're flying and watch how their hands move and the plane responds and compare it to yours in the sim.  Use FSUIPC to adjust the slope until it's right.  You may not get the right 'pressure feel feedback' but your hand will have the right movement.

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For my 73rd Birthday treat I flew the 737-800ng simulator here https://plus.google.com/115408563554081290929/photos?gl=uk&hl=en  and quickly realised that, the real thing is nothing like I thought it was.

 

The rudder and flight yoke was extremely sensitive and a lot more than the hardware we are all used to.   I use the Saitek Yoke and pedals at home and as soon as I reached home again I adjusted ALL my controls to very sensitive and it has made a lot of improvement for me.

 

I would strongly advise others to do the same.

So glad you enjoyed it Dave, so envious! I'll take on board your feedback - no pun intended!

Happy Birthday!

Jude

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Please remember that even full motion Level D simulators are more sensitive than the real aircraft. The simulators differ from facility to facility also, so for example, you can go to ABC FlightSafety and train on the 737-800 then for recurrent 6 months later go to XYZ FlightSafety and train on the 737-800 and have a totally different experience. The systems should work exactly the same but the feeling will be different. Simulators have "Sim-isms" they're a little crazy at times :)

 This.

 

For my 73rd Birthday treat I flew the 737-800ng simulator here https://plus.google.com/115408563554081290929/photos?gl=uk&hl=en  and quickly realised that, the real thing is nothing like I thought it was.

 

It wasn't the real thing.  The "real sim" is more sensitive than the "real thing".  This is true for most (all?) Level-D,C, etc. sims.

 

At any rate, FSUIPC is the most powerful tool for tuning sensitivity on your hardware.

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The one thing I would suggest, no matter what yoke you have, is to go to youtube and look for videos for the airplane that you're flying and watch how their hands move and the plane responds and compare it to yours in the sim.  Use FSUIPC to adjust the slope until it's right.  You may not get the right 'pressure feel feedback' but your hand will have the right movement.

 

In my view you will never really get 1:1 movement in a homesim on the pitch axis.  Roll yes.  The distance between full forward and full aft yoke position in a real sim or real aircraft is at least double that of the fwd-aft travel distance in a homesim.

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Please remember that even full motion Level D simulators are more sensitive than the real aircraft. The simulators differ from facility to facility also, so for example, you can go to ABC FlightSafety and train on the 737-800 then for recurrent 6 months later go to XYZ FlightSafety and train on the 737-800 and have a totally different experience. The systems should work exactly the same but the feeling will be different. Simulators have "Sim-isms" they're a little crazy at times :)

It depends how you define sensitivity. It should be the response compared to the input. More sensitive means more response for a given input. A Level D simulator cannot be very different in sensitivity to the real thing, otherwise it would not get Level D qualitification. The main difference is the motion response, which is of course less in the simulator. that should make it feel less sensitive, not more sensitive. However the sensitivity in terms of the control force to produce a given response is very close.

 

Boeing provides the same data to all simulator manufacturers and they are all tested against the same Boeing flight test data to the same tolerances. They aren't perfect of course so if you see something happening in a simulator that doesn't mean that is exactly how the aircraft works.

 

 

The rudder and flight yoke was extremely sensitive and a lot more than the hardware we are all used to. I use the Saitek Yoke and pedals at home and as soon as I reached home again I adjusted ALL my controls to very sensitive and it has made a lot of improvement for me.

I've always argued for using 100% sensitivity in FSX, even when PMDG have recommended reduced sensitivity in the past. Reduced sensitivity in effect reduces the rate of response of the sim. If you watch the control surfaces move in the external view with a low sensitivity setting and apply full control deflection you will see the surface moving slowly to the full deflected position. Increase sensitivity and the surface moves much faster.

 

If the aircraft has a slow response to controls in real life that should be simulated in the air file, not by reducing control sensitivity.

 

The real problem with control sensitivity in FSX is that hobby grade control hardware doesn't provide enough force feel. So you can easily apply full deflection and so get an oversentive response. The answer is not to reduce control sensitivity but to apply less control input.

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In my view you will never really get 1:1 movement in a homesim on the pitch axis. Roll yes. The distance between full forward and full aft yoke position in a real sim or real aircraft is at least double that of the fwd-aft travel distance in a homesim.

 

But, you also, very rarely, ever use that full motion RW.  It would be for a steep dive or, perhaps, practicing stalls.  At least you could cut it back some.  This vid on a Citation Mustang shows how little pitch is needed for a Vref landing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGfqfUv9tto

 

Here's a takeoff in a 737 where it looks like, maybe, 2.5" of pullback?  Guessing...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgOeSTK6qVY

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The one thing I would suggest, no matter what yoke you have, is to go to youtube and look for videos for the airplane that you're flying and watch how their hands move and the plane responds and compare it to yours in the sim.  Use FSUIPC to adjust the slope until it's right.  You may not get the right 'pressure feel feedback' but your hand will have the right movement.

The problem with the NGX would be that full wheel input only gives about half the wheel angle in the VC compared to the real 737 wheel at full deflection. So what looks like a 20 degree wheel input in the VC would actually be a 40 degree input in the real aircraft in terms of percentage deflection to maximum. So any visual comparison will be misleading.

 

I would advise using full control deflection to achieve full surface deflection. If it doesn't do that you will have some dead motion at the end of control travel.

 

 

Roll yes.

Not roll either, not in the NGX at least.

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Would you mind sharing your FSUIPC sensitvity settings that you feeel are more accurate?

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Would you mind sharing your FSUIPC sensitvity settings that you feeel are more accurate?

 

I don't fly the NGX except once in a blue moon.  My guess is that a slope setting of -4 or -5 based on what kevinh said?  Give it a try and see if the wheel movement in the VC is about the same. 

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I've always argued for using 100% sensitivity in FSX, even when PMDG have recommended reduced sensitivity in the past. Reduced sensitivity in effect reduces the rate of response of the sim.

Hi to all,

I'd like to give my little contribute to this discussion,

Firstly I agree with Kevin:

I have never flown (until now) a B738 FFS Level D Simulator but I've been spending some hours in a B738 fixed base training every now and then (usually 6 times in a year, 2 hours per session, the last time was on last Saturday):

The big difference is given by a yoke feeling vs a joystick..you know: a joystick as a travel of few centrimetres from i.e. neutral position to full up position so if you've sometimes the sensation to make a too fast rotation during takeoff is due to your rapid backward movement not to control sensitivity, as Kevin has wrote, FS sensitivity regerds the "rate of response" of the control and you need to keep it at 100% to be realistic.(togheter with keeping a lower null zone if you can).on the other hand a yoke is heavier and has a longer travel so it easier to make "fine-tuning" correction there you've only to resist to the sensation i.e. to pull harder on takeoff and considering the a/c inertia etc (i.e. 7 seconds from the beginning to the rotation to a 15° nose up pitch).

Anyway the proprietor of that sim told me that its controls are more sensitive, especially on roll axis than a FFS Level D sim that I had tested  (and also more sensitive to the real bird according to a RW b738 pilot testing that sim). On the other hand also that fixed base simulator hasn't got a "force feedback" controls: i.e. when autopilot is engaged the yoke doesn't move. He told me that in the FFS Level D sim controls were heavier and less sensitive especially on roll. He told me that if you mistrim the pitch the yoke become very heavy...he experienced that  during a stall recovery manouver..you know: as stated into FCTM during that exercise you haven't to re-trim so for recovering he had to use a "great force to push forward the yoke because it was very heavy I could feel almost the airplane weight".

 

Best Regards

 

Andrea


Sorry folks,

I made a mistake: the correct is "than a FFS Level D sim that HE had tested" (unfortunately I've never tested it until now)

I do my apologizes

 

Best Regards

Andrea

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I appreciated reading all the feedback you gave me guys and one of my problems being, I haven't ever flown a real aircraft, where apparently, fine movements of the controls of any aircraft are similar.

 

Maybe I did it the wrong way around eh?

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I appreciated reading all the feedback you gave me guys and one of my problems being, I haven't ever flown a real aircraft, where apparently, fine movements of the controls of any aircraft are similar.

 

Maybe I did it the wrong way around eh?

 

If I understand you, no, I don't think you got it wrong.  I removed the null zone on my CH yoke for an airplane today and increased sensitivity in FSUIPC.  The result was excellent.  While I don't have any spring giving me similar pressure (like an aileron does), I could still see with my eyes that the airplane was tilted and a slight movement did straighten it.  I am looking for a better yoke that has a smaller "no spring zone" or "no pressure zone" when it's centered so that I can also get the pressure 'clue' that the aileron or elevator is deflecting the control surface.  But it's not essential...it's just one more clue.  Also, every airplane is different.  Whipping the yoke sideways for a steep turn on a Cessna 172 is going to have an immediate affect.  On a Boeing, not so much.

 

Gregg

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Kevinh,

 

I have flown various commercial airplanes as a professional pilot, I've been to numerous initial and recurrent Simulator sessions. Believe me when I tell you that even a Levele D Simulator is different than the real airplane, not by much but different at the same time. Simulators are more sensitive. Be it Frascas to full blown Level D Simulators. It's a program that is programmed by engineers to Simulate flight and system malfunctions. The control input for example that you put on the yoke at rotation in the simulator is exaggerated compared to the real aircraft, at the same time, maintaining straight in level in the simulator is more of a chore than in the real airplane because of how sensitive to touch the simulator is. Steep turns are way more sensitive in the Simulator than in real life. Crosswind landings are also unrealistic even in a Level D simulator. Ground friction is also unrealistic compared to the real aircraft. Don't ask me why but it is. Now how ever the governing entity certifies the simulator is a different story all together. I don't know what goes into it but if you can fly the simulator you can fly the real airplane.

 

The NGX is the best 737NG simulator in the confines of FSX. It's amazing what PMDG has done with this airplane.

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Kevinh,

 

I have flown various commercial airplanes as a professional pilot, I've been to numerous initial and recurrent Simulator sessions. Believe me when I tell you that even a Levele D Simulator is different than the real airplane, not by much but different at the same time. Simulators are more sensitive. Be it Frascas to full blown Level D Simulators. It's a program that is programmed by engineers to Simulate flight and system malfunctions. The control input for example that you put on the yoke at rotation in the simulator is exaggerated compared to the real aircraft, at the same time, maintaining straight in level in the simulator is more of a chore than in the real airplane because of how sensitive to touch the simulator is. Steep turns are way more sensitive in the Simulator than in real life. Crosswind landings are also unrealistic even in a Level D simulator. Ground friction is also unrealistic compared to the real aircraft. Don't ask me why but it is. Now how ever the governing entity certifies the simulator is a different story all together. I don't know what goes into it but if you can fly the simulator you can fly the real airplane.

 

The NGX is the best 737NG simulator in the confines of FSX. It's amazing what PMDG has done with this airplane.

I'm one of those engineers that designs full flight simulators and I can tell you categorically that no exaggeration of control effects is designed in. Every effort is made to exactly reproduce the way the aircraft flight controls work.

 

Of course the FFS does not fly exactly like the real aircraft, but it should not be more sensitive. I would argue that with the limited motion available it will feel less sensitive.

 

If you say the FFS is more sensitive than the aircraft then you will have to define what you mean by sensitivity. I'm talking about the amount of response you get for a given control input. As there are QTG tests for this in pitch, roll and yaw I would say that means the FFS necessarily must be close in sensitivity to the real aircraft. If it isn't it won't pass those tests.

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Hi Kevin,

 

It's hard to describe. In some cases, like for instance at rotation, I've noticed (as well as my peers) that most simulators I (we) have trained in require more force to rotate and become airborne. The same with flaring during landing, the sim feels mechanical compared to the real acft. I find that the control pressure is exaggerated. I believe the real acft is easier to fly than the sim. Simulators are great for training, procedures and are inexpensive compared to training in the acft. I have also noticed that in straight and level flight the sim is more sensitive to control inputs in the way that you can find yourself over controlling or over correcting. We brief this before training.

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Also keep in mind what a Level D Sim means: that the FAA has approved it for a line pilot to do all of his or her training in to get a type rating without having to fly the real aircraft as part of their training.

 

So, the engineers will do all they can to make the simulator feel and fly like the real aircraft...and the FAA will test that out and then certify it as such.

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Hi Kevin,

 

It's hard to describe. In some cases, like for instance at rotation, I've noticed (as well as my peers) that most simulators I (we) have trained in require more force to rotate and become airborne. The same with flaring during landing, the sim feels mechanical compared to the real acft. I find that the control pressure is exaggerated. I believe the real acft is easier to fly than the sim. Simulators are great for training, procedures and are inexpensive compared to training in the acft. I have also noticed that in straight and level flight the sim is more sensitive to control inputs in the way that you can find yourself over controlling or over correcting. We brief this before training.

Well I can assure you it is not deliberate. What would be the point of spending $200K or more on a control loading system and not using it accurately? Rotation forces are affected by ground effect, same for flare, and that is a complex area to model accurately. It relies entirely on the data provided by the manufacturer. We don't make anything up. The ground effects data we get is a combination of aerodynamic theory, data derived from CFM analysis and aircraft flight test measurements (with interpolation between measured points). The result is never going to be 100% accurate. But it should be close enough to train the manoeuvre.

 

I've often heard pilots complain the sim is less stable than the aircraft, and maybe that's what you mean be being more sensitive. No one really knows why this is, especially when you can show that the sim response is exactly the same as the flight test recording. It may well be to do with motion cues that aren't present in the sim. It could be to do with the frame rate being used. Breakout forces (the initial load when you move the control from neutral position) may not be high enough. Motion certainly has an effect too. In a fixed base sim maintaining level flight is much harder. On motion you feel vertical deviation through g forces as soon as you move the column.

 

I hope you don't brief that simulator control forces are exaggerated though. ;)

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