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JoeDiamond

Can't feather props in flight?

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Attempted to shut down an engine in flight.  Condition lever to emergency shutoff and pressed the stop button.  Gauges indicate zero RPM but the propeller never stops turning.

 

Is proper single engine behavior modeled in this airplane?

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We had to make a choice about this during development:

 

We could either have the props feather, or we could accurately implement the NTS system. We couldn't do both due to FS limitations. So we chose the NTS system, which is unique to the Garretts.

 

In the event of an engine failure in flight, the NTS system will automatically pitch the blades to maintain zero torque. Although you are correct that in the real aircraft, pulling the condition lever to emergency stop will, in fact, fully feather the propeller.

 

Hope this answers your question! 

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That would have been nice to know before making the purchase.  Being unable to feather a prop is hardly an insignificant detail.

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Could you implement a button to feather the props?  Most prop controls have a button at the bottom position.  Only a suggestion...maybe.

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It's a glaring omission for a product that claims to have "in depth" systems modeling.  What's the point of modeling the details if the basics aren't there?

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It's a glaring omission for a product that claims to have "in depth" systems modeling.  What's the point of modeling the details if the basics aren't there?

 

 

It's a glaring omission for a product that claims to have "in depth" systems modeling.  What's the point of modeling the details if the basics aren't there?

 

 

Well sometimes you have to make compromises when you develop an aircraft. We are trying to bring to you systems and simulation components which have never been seen before in flight simulator, and we have. Many, many satisfied customers have praised our engine simulation. Most aircraft simulations on the market today are NOT designed to simulate emergency situations. There is one particular aircraft that comes to mind which offers no emergency or failure simulation at all, and is one of the best selling products of all time...with a price tag of $70.00.

 

This is a flight simulator. There are going to be certain factors that you simply cannot recreate, or a compromise will have to be made.

 

I suspect had we chosen to have feathering propellers, but no NTS system, that you would've had the same complaint.

 

That would have been nice to know before making the purchase.  Being unable to feather a prop is hardly an insignificant detail.

 

Not having an operating NTS system on a Garrett engine is hardly a significant detail as well. I suspect had we chosen to have feathering propellers, but no NTS system, that you would've had the same complaint.

 

Please provide me with your name and order number.

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Well sometimes you have to make compromises when you develop an aircraft. We are trying to bring to you systems and simulation components which have never been seen before in flight simulator, and we have. Many, many satisfied customers have praised our engine simulation.

 

You have done a fine job simulating the NTS system, that is not my complaint.  I applaud your innovation given the limitations that FSX imposes on developers.

 

What is at issue is the lack of information regarding the limitations of such a compromise.  When one purchases a simulation of a multi-engine airplane it is reasonable to expect it to simulate all aspects of multi-engine flight including single engine operations.  For me personally it's a deal breaker and I would not have purchased the aircraft had I known about it.  For others it may not make a difference.  In either case the buyer could make an informed decision had the information been available.

 

Name and order number will be sent via PM.

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You have done a fine job simulating the NTS system, that is not my complaint. I applaud your innovation given the limitations that FSX imposes on developers.

 

 

 

What is at issue is the lack of information regarding the limitations of such a compromise. When one purchases a simulation of a multi-engine airplane it is reasonable to expect it to simulate all aspects of multi-engine flight including single engine operations. For me personally it's a deal breaker and I would not have purchased the aircraft had I known about it. For others it may not make a difference. In either case the buyer could make an informed decision had the information been available.

 

 

Full disclosure, I haven't bought this airplane yet...got my hands full at the moment, but I've got my eyes on it based on what I'm reading.

 

It's pretty rare for a developer to do that kind of disclosure, I think.  There are so many things that you have to compromise on when you develop an airplane.  You do everything you can to make it right but there are always sacrifices.  If Carenado ever did that the list would be a pretty long read for some of their planes.  What might be worse in this case is for someone to not do the NTS and do the feather. 

 

It's also pretty rare for a developer to offer to do a shared cockpit training session...probably one of the nicest and coolest ideas I've heard.

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Mr. Seipp's comments and observations  are right on target for this simulation. Most serious flight simmers are aware (or should be aware) of FSX limitations and compromises that must be made with complex aircraft. This is a solid aircraft that handles like a smooth Kentucky Bourbon. Since the FSX architecture requires compromises on occasion, I'd rather have the NTS feature that will be used on every flight instead of an airborne prop feather that hopefully is never used in one's career.  

 

I had the opportunity today to take advantage of Flysimware's offer for the cockpit training session (via multiplayer and teamspeak). Thanks to Joe's extensive real-work knowledge and experience with the C441, the training session is an extraordinary and unique opportunity for the serious folks in the flight sim community to better the character of this Cessna Queen. 

 

Les Parson

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In my aviation experience, I've never seen a feathered propeller ever. With the exception of a free-turbine shut down. (Let's not jynx it...I'd rather not see one any time soon).

 

The only person on this thread who has ever seen a 441 feathered is Joe, who has tons of experience on the actual aircraft.

 

I'm not hear to point fingers, however this is the most realistic aircraft with TPE331 engines in FSX. Period. Others have come close but none to this extent. I do believe this attack as a little unfair.

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I'm not hear to point fingers, however this is the most realistic aircraft with TPE331 engines in FSX.

 

Sure, so long as you don't try and shut one down in flight.

 

If you are looking for something to simulate normal operations it's great.  If you want something that you can practice single engine operations in, don't buy this airplane.

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In either case the buyer could make an informed decision had the information been available.

Do you really think vendors of domestic flight sim products should have to list every single real world feature that is not functional in the sim?     Your expectations may be a bit high there.   In any case, they have offered you a recourse/refund - can't see fairer than that.

 

Personally, I'd much rather nave NTS simulated, that I'm going to use on every flight, rather than feathering props that I'm never going to use.  

 

If you want something that you can practice single engine operations in, don't buy this airplane.

No that's just your subjective opinion.  There are still procedures you can practice with the plane on single engine; do you think instructors feather the prop during training? .... or normally just pull back the power to simulate a lost engine?

This is a brand new development by a new team, offering something that no-one else is offering, so I think your black & white view of them (based purely on what you want), and telling people not to buy it if they want this and that, is a little harsh.

 

They've offered you a refund, so why not be a bit more sporting and say 'thanks, it wasn't for me', rather than inflating the value of your opinion about the product.

  

I do believe this attack as a little unfair.

Although I wouldn't see it as an attack as such, I do agree that the spirit is a bit mean and self-aggrandizing.  

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There are still procedures you can practice with the plane on single engine; do you think instructors feather the prop during training? .... or normally just pull back the power to simulate a lost engine?

 

Simulate a simulated engine failure?  Seems a bit redundant.  The reason you don't feather the prop in the real plane is because of the obvious hazards involved.  The whole purpose of a simulator is to experience things you can't or shouldn't do in the real airplane.

 

 

 


Your expectations may be a bit high there.

 

Expecting to be able to feather a prop on a multi engine airplane seems well within reason.

 

 

 


In any case, they have offered you a recourse/refund - can't see fairer than that.

 

While a request was made for my order information, there has been no offer of a refund at this time.  In fairness I have not received a response yet so that may very well be their intention.  In any case I have not asked for nor do I expect one.  I made a purchase knowing that all sales are final.  However, I will make my opinion known so others can decide if it's important to them prior to making their purchase.

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Expecting to be able to feather a prop on a multi engine airplane seems well within reason.

 

Not if you understand the limitations of the underlying simulator, it is FSX at fault here not the developers. you know that now but still refuse to cut them some slack.

Out of interest which addons do you own that you consider contain flawless modeling of a Garret turboprop.

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Not if you understand the limitations of the underlying simulator, it is FSX at fault here not the developers. you know that now but still refuse to cut them some slack.

 

I'm well aware of and understand the limitations imposed by FSX.  If you read my prior comment you would see that I have already acknowledged that they have done a great job modeling the NTS given the limitations they imposed by the sim.  However, a major compromise had to be made to achieve that.  It's not some little compromise like the RPM and temps are off a bit...you can't feather the prop! If you can't have NTS and proper feathering than a proper Garret simulation can't be done, period.  They chose to accept a compromise that introduced a major flaw into their product.  They made that choice.  I didn't have the choice as the consumer to decide if that compromise was acceptable to me because it was not disclosed.

 

If that on it's own were the only issue I could live with it but combined with the graphic quality being several years behind other add ons in this price range the value of this product fails to live up to the amount they are asking for it.  If you are going to price your products like A2A or RealAir your products needs to be able to run with the big boys, and this one can't

 

Just my opinion as a consumer.

 

 

 


Out of interest which addons do you own that you consider contain flawless modeling of a Garret turboprop.

 

You and I both know such an addon does not exist...and still doesn't

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 I didn't have the choice as the consumer to decide if that compromise was acceptable to me because it was not disclosed.

 

Yes you did, if feather a prop is a deal breaker for you and you don't see it in the description, you can always contact the developer and ask them directly whatever you want to know about the product before making the purchase, This is by far one of the easiest to reach vendors I have seen with very short response time and would have been easy for you to know if the product was suitable for you or not.

 

I apologize and I rarely post in a forum but in this case I feel obligated as I believe that your comments are a bit unfair and very subjective when you recommend people not to buy this product. I have been supporting this vendor from a long time and if there is something I can say is how they ( or should I say he, because I believe the modeler is just 1 person) raise the bar with every release, giving us something new and different. Yes, they are not perfect but they do their best to give us a good product with great support and customer care.

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Ok then, which Turboprop addon (non Garret) do you consider flawless.

You knew going in that FSX had limitations, admittedly the Devs did not advertise the lack of feathering and the reasons they had for not including it..

But a quick question here would have got you the answer you needed and saved you from spending your money.

Get ready to spend lots of cash on flawed addons it is the nature of the platform, there are flaws in every third party product I own, compromise is needed if you are to fully enjoy this Game.

There I have said it.... It's a 7 year old consumer game product, just enjoy it for what it  is, it will never be perfect.

It does get close though on occasions.

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I will leave everything at this:

 

I can appreciate that the reason people use flight simulators is to practice procedures that are too dangerous to perform in the aircraft. If a Level-D simulator is what you are looking for, you can buy an hour in one for about the price of ten copies of FSX. 

 

It is absolutely correct that we made a conscious compromise. A fact which I have repeatedly stated on this thread, many have supported, and one has opposed. I'm sorry that our rendition hasn't satisfied you. Your attitude speaks volumes however. Another individual was quick to suggest a way to integrate prop feathering that we may not have thought of. That's where his brain went. Yours immediately went into bash mode, and that is your right if that is how you choose to do business. It is not, however, how we choose to do business.

 

I can tell you that from my real world experience in the 441, the Garrett simulation is 98% faithful to the real thing. I don't know if the dissatisfied individual has ever flown a 441, but our simulation more than satisfies my realism bug. We even added a feature on the control panel in Rev 1.4 to turn the propeller by hand with the engine shut down. Just so you can follow the after shutdown checklist (10 revolutions) to a tee. But according to some, none of this matters if you can't feather the props, a feature which has a statistical chance of being necessary in real life of 1:1,000,000,000, and a statistical chance of ZERO of being necessary in FSX.

 

So with that said, I would like to thank everyone for being so supportive of this product. We believe it is a tremendous step forward for both Flight Simulator, and our company. We look forward to revealing more about our next project soon! A few of you may already know, but for those who don't, just know that it's got Garrett's!

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Without going into detail I will say that Joe has contacted me in a prompt and courteous manner and has resolved my issue satisfactorily.  While I may disagree with some aspects of this product, customer service is not one of them.


 

 


It does get close though on occasions.

 

It does.  Companies like A2A, RealAir and PMDG just to name a few have done quite well.  A big part of the reason for their success is that they only take on projects they know can be done without compromise.

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Without going into detail I will say that Joe has contacted me in a prompt and courteous manner and has resolved my issue satisfactorily.  While I may disagree with some aspects of this product, customer service is not one of them.

 

 

 

It does.  Companies like A2A, RealAir and PMDG just to name a few have done quite well.  A big part of the reason for their success is that they only take on projects they know can be done without compromise.

 

One of those companies that you just listed did a twin turboprop commuter airplane powered by Garrett engines. They had to make compromises left right and sideways. Our simulation is actually closer to the real thing. And I'm fairly certain that product was almost double the price of ours. Don't believe me, go compare the propeller startup animations on each aircraft.

 

Those companies don't compromise? We all compromise.

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It seems, in my humble opinion, that this thread has become primarily about giving JoeDiamond an audience to air his views (which I maintain he is over-valuing, as some sort of objective basis).

 

Mad dog raised an excellent point - if you did not see "fully featherable props" in the list of features, then you should not have assumed such a feature (which is outside the limitations of FSX) was part of the product.    I would have liked the ability to have watched a full DVD of my choice while sitting in the cabin, within the product - but as it wasn't listed in the features, I didn't expect it.   :wink:

You've (more than) made your point JoeDiamond, and as you now have your refund, perhaps you can let the matter lie and stop constantly detracting from an excellent product that offers so much.

 


A big part of the reason for their success is that they only take on projects they know can be done without compromise.

 

.........this is complete nonsense.   Every one of those developers would freely admit a high degree of comprimise in their product.   They must just be lucky that their comprimises come with your approval, that's all.

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Me thinks time to close this thread.

 

 

:drinks:

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if you did not see "fully featherable props" in the list of features, then you should not have assumed such a feature (which is outside the limitations of FSX) was part of the product.

 

You are right, forgive me for assuming a basic function of a propeller wasn't included.  Your comparison with the DVD player borders on ridiculous.  If you were purchasing a model with a constant speed propeller do you think you should have to confirm that you can indeed control the RPM, or would that be a poor assumption as well?

 

 

 


But according to some, none of this matters if you can't feather the props, a feature which has a statistical chance of being necessary in real life of 1:1,000,000,000, and a statistical chance of ZERO of being necessary in FSX.

 

But you feel it's important to include a feature to spin the props by hand after shutdown?  I'm pretty certain residual heat buildup after shutdown has zero chances of causing problems in FSX.  It's a gimmicky feature that you will use once and think "that's cool" and never use it again.  I would think the time spent to develop gimmicky features could be better spent solving real problems such as, say, engine out handling?

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You are right, forgive me for assuming a basic function of a propeller wasn't included. Your comparison with the DVD player borders on ridiculous. If you were purchasing a model with a constant speed propeller do you think you should have to confirm that you can indeed control the RPM, or would that be a poor assumption as well?

 

 

But you feel it's important to include a feature to spin the props by hand after shutdown? I'm pretty certain residual heat buildup after shutdown has zero chances of causing problems in FSX. It's a gimmicky feature that you will use once and think "that's cool" and never use it again. I would think the time spent to develop gimmicky features could be better spent solving real problems such as, say, engine out handling?

To those of you that are enjoying the product, thank you.

 

For those of you who have provided constructive criticism, thank you.

 

Just because you can't feather the props now, doesn't mean you won't be able to in a future revision. We will keep you posted, as we always do!

 

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