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Driver170

Circling rwy 36 vpt LFLB

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Evening folks, needing some help on when to turn base for this procedure.

 

So to start you would fly the ILS APP and level off at MDA, if sufficient visual reference exist proceed to point B and commence a left turn to track 135' now this is where it gets tricky, what can i use for this right turn at point B for the downwind track? I know in the RW they use the motorway - A43

 

below is a snap shot of navigraph chart.

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/maouxhblihb4pb7/Photo%2018-12-2014%2017%2029%2015.png?dl=0

 

 

 

Also would like to include, i can't make sense of the additional landing minima on page 51 -1 through to 3

 

what does the % mean ? example ILS X/Y/Z 2.5% RWY 18 CAT A,B,C

 

and this % keeps going up in 2.5 3.0 3.5 etc

 

 

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what can i use for this right turn at point B for the downwind track?

 

Sitting in a cockpit you'd use your eyeballs; however, in PC simulation this gets tricky. You might open another window with a top down view but it'd be some kind of accomodation for the sim enviornment.

 

Thanks for sharing this, I'd never seen a chart like this before and wonder if it falls into the IFR approach category. We have plenty of VFR terminal procedure charts here in the US and I imagine the French Alps create a great need.  I used to spend a week every year at Val Thorens and skiied the Three Valleys. Remarkable airports in that region.

 

EDIT:  I should clarify that the statement 'use your eyeballs' was serious, not saracasm. Circling procedures include keeping the airport/runway in sight so this becomes a visual downwind, base and final but with a charted procedure to keep you off the mountains.

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PC simulation this gets tricky

 

Tell me about it. the pilot i speak to on PPRUNE i want bother asking because we don't have the ground aids to help us etc. well you could have scenery but thats a different story.

 

I have just set my routing up through PFPX and had to tweak it because all north inbound traffic has to be routed through GENEVA TMA Y55 TRANSITION. followed by the SALEV 7R STAR.

 

I'm off to france in feb for a skiin holiday, can't wait to see that approach. 


 

Also would like to include, i can't make sense of the additional landing minima on page 51 -1 through to 3
 
what does the % mean ? example ILS X/Y/Z 2.5% RWY 18 CAT A,B,C
 
and this % keeps going up in 2.5 3.0 3.5 etc
 

 

Ok i found out what this means and its to do with your MISAP MNM climb gradient.

 

so How can i work out my MISAP MNM climb gradien?

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...what can i use for this right turn at point B for the downwind track?...

You must fly on track 135 for 2.6nm, considering you're category C , which will be waypoint B, and then track 176 for the downind for 2.2 nm.

I dont know if you have those waypoints on your Navdata ,and if don't, it will really be trick to add them, as the PMDG MCDU doesn't allow you to create user waypoints based on user waypoints. And thats what we should do in RW. That could be a nicely LNAV flown approach.

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Thats my problem, knowing when to turn for downwind at point B. Could possibly try place a ring around the airport in the fix page.

 

How do you work out your climb gradient in % ?

 

Also, what are the regs for leaving your ORIGIN and the DEST weather is below minimums for that airport? Could you still takeoff?

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When you reach point A you start the stopwatch. You will have done your homework in advance and know that for a given airspeed you will cover 2.6nm in x time.

 

Plus visual reference.

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Thats my problem, knowing when to turn for downwind at point B. Could possibly try place a ring around the airport in the fix page.

 

I'd use the NDB CH as an aid, put a 090 radial away from it on a FIX page in the CDU and use that by keeping base leg North of the radial.

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I forgot i have ultimate terrain x europe! So i can use the A43 for the part to turn downwind.

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Since this is in FSX once visual I would fly down the centerline of the runway until getting to the RWY36 numbers, trun left 30 degrees for one minute, do a standard rate turn back to the right to a heading of 360.  This should put you on the extended for RWY36.

 

Billy Bluestar 

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Yeh split left on heading 135 for 1 minute -/+ half HT then right 176 for 2.2nm. Or when abeam threshold rwy 36, timing 3 sec per agl plus wind correction.

 

So when turning base keep an eye on the PAPI and use that for the steep 4 degree glide.

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I got told this

 

 

60kts=60nm/hour=1nm/minute

 

At 150 knots you travel 2.5 NM per minute

 

'Radius of turn' at Chambery is taken care of by flying that procedure (corrected for wind) for the (adjusted) times on the chart. The procedure is known a 'circling with prescribed tracks' in English and MUST be flown 'visually'. Often there are no such tracks/distances laid down so you do your own thing.

 

 

But can't work out how he got 2.5nm 150kts?

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I got told this

 

 

60kts=60nm/hour=1nm/minute

 

At 150 knots you travel 2.5 NM per minute

 

'Radius of turn' at Chambery is taken care of by flying that procedure (corrected for wind) for the (adjusted) times on the chart. The procedure is known a 'circling with prescribed tracks' in English and MUST be flown 'visually'. Often there are no such tracks/distances laid down so you do your own thing.

 

 

But can't work out how he got 2.5nm 150kts?

It's basic arithmetic. At 60 kts you travel 1nm in one minute. At 150 knots you travel 150/60 nm.

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Hi guys. Just to clarify the 2.5%, 3.5% etc is the MACG (Missed Approach Climb Gradient)

 

Unless otherwise stated the aerodromes operating minima is based on a 2.5% missed approach climb gradient. Occasionally when terrain in the missed approach area is critical a lower landing minima can be selected based on a higher than normal missed approach climb gradient.

 

If we want to verify that we can fly a MACG greater than 2.5% we have to take into account it needs to be flown in the one-engine inoperative missed approach configuration (One engine, TOGA thrust, Gear up, F15)

 

In reality we don't have the time to work this out and I can't remember how to! Ops Performance manual thankfully has a table in the preamble which verifies if you can fly a missed approach greater than 2.5% based on pressure altitude of your destination and OAT.

 

 

macg.jpg

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You can also try to use the ND. Just use the smallest scale on the ND and turn when abeam the Rwy threshold just like what it is on the chart.

 

It should work nicely assuming you have an accurate position from the FM.

 

If you want a super accurate position just use google earth to work out the coordinate and use the fix page to display the waypoint there. That would work too.

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Also, what are the regs for leaving your ORIGIN and the DEST weather is below minimums for that airport? Could you still takeoff?

You can still takeoff IF the forecasted weather (TAF) for your ETA is above minimums and you fill a second alternate airport. This varies country to country's regulations.

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i guys. Just to clarify the 2.5%, 3.5% etc is the MACG (Missed Approach Climb Gradient)

 

Unless otherwise stated the aerodromes operating minima is based on a 2.5% missed approach climb gradient. Occasionally when terrain in the missed approach area is critical a lower landing minima can be selected based on a higher than normal missed approach climb gradient.

 

If we want to verify that we can fly a MACG greater than 2.5% we have to take into account it needs to be flown in the one-engine inoperative missed approach configuration (One engine, TOGA thrust, Gear up, F15)

 

In reality we don't have the time to work this out and I can't remember how to! Ops Performance manual thankfully has a table in the preamble which verifies if you can fly a missed approach greater than 2.5% based on pressure altitude of your destination and OAT.

 

 

Brilliant chart and info there thankyou! I found this to help me understand MACG http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-445232.html

You can also try to use the ND. Just use the smallest scale on the ND and turn when abeam the Rwy threshold just like what it is on the chart.

 

It should work nicely assuming you have an accurate position from the FM.

 

If you want a super accurate position just use google earth to work out the coordinate and use the fix page to display the waypoint there. That would work too.

 

Thanks for the tip !!!

Driver170, on 20 Dec 2014 - 4:23 PM, said:

Also, what are the regs for leaving your ORIGIN and the DEST weather is below minimums for that airport? Could you still takeoff?

 

You can still takeoff IF the forecasted weather (TAF) for your ETA is above minimums and you fill a second alternate airport. This varies country to country's regulations.

 

 

Just read JAR OPS 1 and done a little search!

 

 

If you are flying to airport A and it is below minima, you need two alternates which must be above planning minima.

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