Thanks Jarkko for the info

 

Nelson

FWIW: I'm one of the moderators at the ProATC forums (without pay). I personally had to take a timeout, because my day to day job is currently taking way too much time. To give you an example, I haven't been able to do a single flight this year.

 

I'm only speaking for my self, but in this situation, forum moderation is the last thing I want to do. The internet seems to bring out the worst in people.

 

Why is it that people can't ask questions, but decide to start screaming and making false claims?

 

For example, why is it always:

 

"They said, that NAT tracks importing should work in the new version. It doesn't!!! What a sh**ty program, I want my money back!!!"

 

Why couldn't it be like this?

 

"Hello! I tried to import the following route [insert route here] and some of the waypoints are missing. Can you guys help me out with this one? Thanks!"

 

When you come home after a long day of work, what would your reaction when you would see these questions posted? When I see the first version, I don't feel the urge to help out. When I see the second one, I'm more than happy to help.

 

(for the record, the NAT track waypoints import works as it should. You just need to include DCT between any waypoints that are not connected by airways)

 

So to sum up. For me, the reason for not currently being present at the forums is purely lack of time.

 

EDIT: I just received the latest ProATC beta from the developer, so there is a change that a new version is released in the next couple of weeks.

 

P.S. Happy flying (and please read the manual or at least the tutorial flights)!

 

I sympathise with your position and you should not as a volunteer have to put up with rude posts on a forum. However, why are the developers not supporting the product themselves, either by email or in the forum? I don't think it is fair on you to have the burden they should be fielding themselves. I think I'm not alone in having posted a few questions, and some perfectly polite requests and my post did not make it into the forum. 

It's certainly true that volunteers shouldn't have to put up with abuse.  But, this is not an inexpensive program and there is no trial available.  If there had been a trial, some of the issues that I've found and the lack of help from the developers would have encouraged me probably not to buy the full version.  There are some folks on the forum who have voiced some genuine concern and get no response.  I have my co-pilot set to not touch the flaps, but he keeps setting them anyway!  Others have the same issue but get no response.  All the issues can't be fixed overnight but it would be nice to know that someone is listening.

I think I'm not alone in having posted a few questions, and some perfectly polite requests and my post did not make it into the forum. 

 

This doesn't sound normal. During the last 6 months, there was very open policy. All posts were accepted. Only a few profanities edited out here and there.

 

You might or might not know, but many forums were attacked in December of 2014. For example TOPCAT forum is still in read only mode.

 

The reason I'm saying this is, that all posts to the forum have to go through an acceptance process. This is why it might take a day or two for posts to show up on the forum (especially if posted on weekends).

 

Last time I checked, there were about 50 spam messages for every human made post in the acceptance queue.

 

I have my co-pilot set to not touch the flaps, but he keeps setting them anyway!

 

I personally only use ProATC for the ATC (and FS2Crew for the co-pilot) and this is why I haven't seen this happen.

 

As the latest beta was just released, I will ask if someone in the beta team has been able re-produce this error. Sorry to hear that this hasn't been acknowledged before!

Edited February 20, 201511 yr by Jarkko

This doesn't sound normal. During the last 6 months, there was very open policy. All posts were accepted. Only a few profanities edited out here and there.

 

You might or might not know, but many forums were attacked in December of 2014. For example TOPCAT forum is still in read only mode.

 

 

Well again I sympathise. But it is self evident that posts are being rejected or censored and I posted two weeks ago. We'll have to agree to disagree. If a developer wants to support then either respond to emails and make that the default method, or have a forum where the developer responds. It is abundantly clear that the developer is not responding.

But it is self evident that posts are being rejected or censored and I posted two weeks ago. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I honestly can't tell you what has happened as I haven't had the time to visit the forums until today. I can't agree or disagree, if I don't know the current situation. If you still can't find your post, please send me a PM (with your forum user name).

Jarkko, I posted a message on the 6th 0f Jan asking a simple question to Mourad and Clive. There were 2 replys both by me and the post was seen by over 300 people. My question was quite simple, I thought someone would at least say no it's not working or yes It works for me, but nothing from anyone. Thats why people are frustrated with that site. I find it hard to believe that at least one of those 300+ people had aor didn't have the problem described. I know I will and have commented if I see a problem that someone is having and I personally had the same issue or had seen an answer to it some where. That is why most fourms are helpful. Simmers helping other simmers. Thats the way it works most of the time but not on this site. Sorry

 

Cheers

 

Nelson

There were 2 replys both by me and the post was seen by over 300 people.

 

The numbers tell how many times a post has been viewed. Most of the "views" are coming from the computer bots that are attacking the forum, but that is besides the point.

 

 

 

That is why most fourms are helpful. Simmers helping other simmers. Thats the way it works most of the time but not on this site.

 

All I can say is, that things didn't use to be that way. I personally posted multiple tutorials and videos as a customer. This was before I applied for the beta test team last summer.

 

---

 

Listen guys, I came here to tell you all I know:

 

1) I personally haven't had time to help out as much as I used to. 

 

2) A new beta has been released so the project doesn't seem to be dead.

 

If you have any other concerns, please try the forums first. If none of the moderators or other users are unable to help you, then please send an email to the address you can find in the ProATC's Help > About window.

 

If that fails, I'm personally unable to help you any further.

FWIW

Thank you for the update. It's important that both the developer, people taking on the support role like yourself and customers show respect for each other. All the items you mention in your post boil down to three main points.

 

Point 1: The support role. It's important, at all times to be professional and answer each query with tact because if a customer has an issue they are already upset and may not ask questions diplomatically. If a customer points something out that isn't correct then ask then for evidence. They usually cannot supply it if they are wrong. If they are abusive, gently point out why they are and tell them that their query will be answered when they have calmed down. You don't have to speak to abusive people. Be professional in your approach. For example, if you are late for an appointment it's not usefull to say your car broke down, your windscreen shattered and you had three punctures. It will sound like an excuse even if it's true.

 

Point 2: Keep the customer informed. I have a good garage. When my car goes in for a service I'm kept informed of progress at all stages. If theirs a delay my expectations are set. If I order something online that is being delivered by a parcel service. I can track it's progress and my expectations are set for expected delivery times. By default software development can be an unpreedictable process. When I worked for a blue chip company developing software the directors wanted timelines. There expectations were set at the outset and they were informed of progress at weekly status meetings. Software development in this hobby is a little different. Many developers will not give any firm timelines because it keeps the pressure off them. Many of these have extreamly good track records so when they announce they are doing something it materialises. So they do give updates based on their past performance and customer trust. If trust does not exist then it has to be earned.

 

Point three. Set customer expectation and earn customer trust and respect. Then, and only then, does the job get easier. Therefor, I suggest, and it's only my opinion that starting a post FWIW comes over as defetest from the outset and doesn't fill the customer with much confidence.

If I wasn't so caught up in VATSIM I'd use Pro ATC X more.  It's not just the best offline ATC addon there is in my opinion, but it's also one of the best route plotters I've seen out of almost ANY other one.

 

It's better than simbrief, flightaware, route finder, vatroute, and yes even PFPX.

 

My opinion but it's pretty flawless.  In fact, I use it more for the route plotting than the ATC.

Why not combine the two? I am on Vatsim most of the time. If I start without ATC I usually have Pro-ATC running as well

 

As for the route plotter functionality, I prefer EFB, but generally Pro-ATC has turned into a really good program that, in my opinion, wrestles with VoxATC for the title of the best available ATC program (except for online ATC, when it is available).

 

Jarkko, I am sorry for your bad experience in the forum.

 

Peter

All the items you mention in your post boil down to three main points.

 

Good points!

 

In my day to day work I use them all. Our project was voted as the mobile service of the year, so following these points didn't hurt.

 

---

 

As far as ProATC is concerned, I have no influence on how ProATC is managed, developed or sold. This is why I can't do any better, than FWIW. I tried to mention (but failed), that I'm making this post as an individual and not as a spokesperson for ProATC.

Thanks for the update Jarkko

Jarkko, I am sorry for your bad experience in the forum.

 

No need to feel sorry for me! I knew very well what I was getting into Just wanted to mention, that a little kindness goes a long way.

 

 

generally Pro-ATC has turned into a really good program that, in my opinion, wrestles with VoxATC for the title of the best available ATC program (except for online ATC, when it is available)

 

I have to agree on this. Neither of them are perfect and that is why I use both of them based on my mood and the flight I'm going to do.

 

Both of the programs share the one single aspect that seems to be a must have for me and that is the support for AIRAC/Navdata. I love the fact, that I do not know in advance which departure/arrival/approach I'm required to fly. Keeps you on your toes

 

I have said it before, but if there would be a way to combine the good parts of Radar Contact, ProATC and VoxATC, I would be extremely happy!

Hello Jarkko, your forum activity and invest of your spare time is much appreciated!

Nearly all other forum moderators are very inactive in the last weeks/months, have you heard anything from them?

Especially Shells and rjord disappeared a long time ago...

Thanks!

FWIW: I'm one of the moderators at the ProATC forums (without pay). I personally had to take a timeout, because my day to day job is currently taking way too much time. To give you an example, I haven't been able to do a single flight this year.

 

I'm only speaking for my self, but in this situation, forum moderation is the last thing I want to do. The internet seems to bring out the worst in people.

 

Why is it that people can't ask questions, but decide to start screaming and making false claims?

 

For example, why is it always:

 

"They said, that NAT tracks importing should work in the new version. It doesn't!!! What a sh**ty program, I want my money back!!!"

 

Why couldn't it be like this?

 

"Hello! I tried to import the following route [insert route here] and some of the waypoints are missing. Can you guys help me out with this one? Thanks!"

 

When you come home after a long day of work, what would your reaction when you would see these questions posted? When I see the first version, I don't feel the urge to help out. When I see the second one, I'm more than happy to help.

 

(for the record, the NAT track waypoints import works as it should. You just need to include DCT between any waypoints that are not connected by airways)

 

So to sum up. For me, the reason for not currently being present at the forums is purely lack of time.

 

EDIT: I just received the latest ProATC beta from the developer, so there is a change that a new version is released in the next couple of weeks.

 

P.S. Happy flying (and please read the manual or at least the tutorial flights)!

 

Hey Jarkko,

 

This thread did not get posted to point fingers. It's just that after the silence last year, I got a little nervous when there was no activity on the forum at all for what seemed like 5 days. That is very unusual. Those of us who frequent the forum appreciate the work that you, Torsten and Shells do on our behalf.

 

Cheers.