Active Route No Altitude Info After Change to Route 2 - VNAV won't engage

[downscc 1,327]

I automatically do the RTE Copy during preflight... I found that it made setting up ETOPS alternate paths a lot easier and never dug very far into the other uses for RTE2

[pcubine 143]

Go to the RTE2 first page it is as the same place as on the RTE1 (LSK3).

On the ACT RTE 1 LEGS I press LSK6 for <RTE 2 LEGS. Once on the RTE 2 LEGS page it is blank except for <RTE 1 LEGS and ACTIVATE> on line 6. Still no request anywhere to be seen. So I am just going to do a route copy and finish the flight.

 

This plane is the 777F. Maybe the CDU/FMC is different on the 77LR. 

 

Is this Request procedure detailed in any FCOMs or FCTM?

[Mike777 163]

 

 

On the ACT RTE 1 LEGS I press LSK6 for on line 6. Still no request anywhere to be seen.

 

Hi, Michael,

 

Make sure you are looking at the Route page in Route 2, not the Legs page.Try using page up to get to the top of the route listing.  You should see the departure and arrival info, and just below the blank for Runway entry, at LSK3 Left, you should see REQUEST.

 

I did some searching for Route 2 in FCOM 2, but I mainly found stuff about the Comm page on the MFD, which looks like it's not modeled (understandably, since normally there's no-one to communicate with).

 

Mike

[pcubine 143]

Make sure you are looking at the Route

It would help if I would not only read the posts but comprehend them also. I see it now. It's on the same page as RTE COPY. What is the advantage of the request function when compared to route copy?

 

The following details how I change from RTE 1 to RTE 2 after using the RTE COPY.

Left CDU on ACT RTE 1 LEGS. Right CDU on PROGRESS 1/4. Click LSK6 <RTE 2 LEGS. Move current waypoint to the first waypoint listed on Page 1 of RTE 2 LEGS. Press RSK6  ACTIVATE>. Press EXECUTE key. Press LSK1 twice. Press EXECUTE key. Now ACT RTE 2 LEGS has all the information including waypoint, distance between waypoints, speed and altitude and RTE 1 LEGS only has waypoints and distance between them. Speed and altitude are blank. LNAV and VNAV remain engaged during whole process. Right CDU still has some partial information left from RTE 1. Press LEGS key. Press LSK6 < RTE 2 LEGS. Press PROG key and the information on PROGRESS 1/4 is current.

 

I just switched back to RTE 1 since it has the correct STAR and APPROACH. RTE 2 had a different STAR and APPROACH but it was to the wrong runway.

 

 

[Budbud 227]

Hi Michael,

 

as mentioned by Mie on an earlier post, it seems that using the route copy function there is no issue to activate the RTE 2. The issue occurs when the RTE 2 is downloaded using the route request function.

 

My guess about the RTE 2 request utility would be if you had to reroute because of weather on a better route, the dispatch could have a better route available during the flight and you could download it.

I don't know however if you would be allow to modify the whole route or part of the route in flight ATC-wise.

[pcubine 143]

See page 88 of the Introduction, Page 12/13 FMC DATALINK, AUTO PREFLIGHT UPLINKS. I believe the keyword here is preflight. It can't be done once you leave the ground.

[Budbud 227]

You are right...

Then what's the purpose of the route request on RTE 2? Download a second different route from the dispatch on ground?

[Mike777 163]

 

 

What is the advantage of the request function when compared to route copy?

 

Hi, Michael and Romain,

 

I ran into a problem because I messed up my primary, Route 1 flight plan.  If I had copied Route 1 to Route 2 as part of pre-flight, it would have been easy to fix -- I could have just gone to Route 2, moved my next waypoint to the top, activated, and everything would have been fine.  But I didn't do a Route Copy at the begiinning.  So I thought I could just load the entire flight plan into Route 2.  I did this by doing Request Route in Route 2.  It did load the plan (from the file saved in the PMDG>flight plans folder) and I could edit it to bring the next waypoint in front of me to the top of the plan.  But it didn't have the altitude data so VNAV wouldn't engage and I couldn't get time predictions, such as TOD. 

 

The only way for me to fix the problem was to manually re-enter the missing parts of the flight plan in Route 1.  That worked fine, and it wasn't too difficult to do since I had completed most of the flight.  But suppose I had been near the beginning, rather than the end, of a ten hour flight?  I would have had to enter all the airway and waypoint information manually.  Kind of annoying when the entire flight plan was readily available on my hard drive in the PMDG>flightplans folder. 

 

The Intro manual does discuss using Request Route in a couple of places as a ground operation.  But it doesn't discuss the situation I faced, in mid-flight.  Here we get into a gray area -- what is being simulated?  Can the pilot request a new flight plan or a repeat of his/her existing flight plan using a data link in mid-flight?  I don't know.  But if he could, why would the altitude data not be calculated by the FMC? 

 

 

 

My guess about the RTE 2 request utility would be if you had to reroute because of weather on a better route, the dispatch could have a better route available during the flight and you could download it.

 

As Romain said, couldn't there be situations in mid-flight where the pilot needs to upload a new route using datalink?

 

I searched Tutorial 1 for "Copy" and I didn't find anything about Route Copy, but I could have missed it.  Apparently it is SOP to set up the route, presumably in Route 1, and then copy it into Route 2 during pre-flight, as both Dan and 777Simmer have suggested.

 

I think I will file a kind of query/information/bug report and see what PMDG says.

 

Mike

[Budbud 227]

I think I will file a kind of query/information/bug report and see what PMDG says.

 

And I will be interested in the anwser you get there.

Would you post the information you will get?

I don't think it's worth opening two tickets on the same topic from two different persons.

[Mike777 163]

 

 

And I will be interested in the anwser you get there.

Would you post the information you will get?

I don't think it's worth opening two tickets on the same topic from two different persons.

 

I expect I will.

 

Thanks to you and Michael for your help!

 

Mike

[downscc 1,327]

I wonder if the Route Request should function while enroute.  Consider any enroute flight is on an ATC issued clearance, no dispatcher is going to modify that because only ATC can do that. Dispatch may send you updated route information via other means but you're going to then contact ATC and request the route modification and wait for the admended clearance before touching your FMS route.  Even during preflight, the route that loads from the Route Request is not your ATC clearance, what you get from ATC is generally same as filed or maybe a few changes to initial route followed by "then as filed."

 

If I had tried to use the Route Request during beta testing during the enroute segment and it worked, I would have asked PMDG if that was realistic; too bad, I never considered trying it because it simply didn't occur to me to try it because I was thinking like a pilot instead of a beta tester. Sorry.

[Budbud 227]

I would be interested in both versions here:

_ How does the real FMC would handle the download of a route through the datalink on RTE 2 while in flight

_ How has this been simulated in the PMDG's

 

Maybe someone with real experience with the T7 (and who has been in the situation to test this) and someone  from PMDG passing by could give some elements of answer?

[Mike777 163]

 

 

Even during preflight, the route that loads from the Route Request is not your ATC clearance, what you get from ATC is generally same as filed or maybe a few changes to initial route followed by "then as filed."

 

Hi, Dan,

 

So would Route Request on ground then connect to your company's dispatcher?  When the pilot receives the flight plan on ground, how does it get to ATC, or does it come from ATC via Route Request?

 

I guess I think too much like a simmer and not enough like a RW pilot -- why the ______ can't I get my plan when it's right there on my hard drive? 

 

Mike

[downscc 1,327]

Hi Mike:  All information you are getting via the FMS communications link is from your company. Many companies share the same communications, generally ARINC, but your information is company owned.

 

There's a lot of automation in the industry that I don't have access to as a private pilot. My ATC clearance comes from clearance delivery, on the radio, before I contact ground control. I can hear airlines getting their clearances the same way at most locations I fly out of.  RW the route you get in the FMS is what the company filed to ATC earlier via computer,  even private pilots can submit flight plans via computer using DUATS.  In the simulation we use stored flight plans, real world is a lot more dynamic.

[Mike777 163]

 

 

All information you are getting via the FMS communications link is from your company. Many companies share the same communications, generally ARINC, but your information is company owned.

 

Hi, Dan,

 

Thanks for the information.  As I read your description, it would be possible for an airline to send to a plane in flight a new or heavily revised flight plan (weather, diversion, etc.), using Request Route.  This would be a flight plan the airline had already filed with ATC. 

 

Mike