800/900 (which you really need to get the full protential, system wise) the cost is really significantly higher, I prefer soft-copy manuals, I print a checklist, Start learning, if I come in problems I can easily use the search tool, much quicker.Unlike the PMDG 744 and LDS 767, The 737NG is not state-of-the-art anymore IMO, So you can't really compare them.

Bob,Your message is WAY off topic. The question is simply PMDG or LDS. Nothing more. . .nothing less. You make some good points regarding each program. My take is PMDG. . .PMDG hands down is the WINNER.Yes, I do take into consideration how customers are treated and what I have seen FIRST HAND. In addition, a HUGE issue is the almost complete lack of nav data for LDS. The last thing a newb needs is trying to figure out how to manually program SIDS/STARS. Honestly, that cannot be any fun as it takes a tremendous amount of time even in the real deal. Bottom line, that's less time flying the sim. . .and that's where all the fun is. Again, hands down. . .PMDG is the WINNER. . .that is. . .unless your really into spending all your time pressing keys and no time flying.As far as the rest of your message goes it's just way too off topic for a reply with one exception. All I can say is from the day I originally purchased 767PIC I was a HUGE fan. Unfortunately, after years of watching newbs and customers being made fun of and run off. . .along with virtually NO SUPPORT (after the patch,) from the designers. . .all the while watching how great PMDG treated their customers. . .calling each and every one of them "captains,". . .I simply began to realize how much better PMDG really was. . .and is.Bottom line, PMDG knows how to treat their customers (captains,) right. And if someone asks. . .I will ALWAYS recommend PMDG without reservation.Gary Hawk

Let's leave Gary with the last word on this subject, shall we?He's obviously right. He knows. He speaks truth.Afterall, unlike Bob, Gary's point of view is unbiased. He is only saying what is TRUE and RIGHT and JUST.God bless, Gary!

You know Daryl. . .it's almost funny to watch how you LDS guys jump in and out of your tags to throw spears and post insulting messages to those who maybe think that LDS is not the latest and greatest. I'm sorry to see this type of behavior as it speaks to the points I've been making for YEARS about the PIC group.Daryl, your message is just another example of why I choose NOT to patronize LDS. Again, I'll stick to the topic at hand. . .PMDG is the WINNER. . .hands down. And thank you for helping to confirm this.Gary Hawk

Gary,How about taking a look at www.navdata.at.It stores complete procedures for 301 airports around the world. Should keep your average n00b simmer busy even if he/she doesn't know the first thing about how to program them him/herself.So there's your "HUGE issue" wiped out... Tero

FWIW, owning both products I'd say the PMDG flight model is edgy and unbalanced. A lot harder to fly by hand than the Level-D flight model.Here's a comment from Dave Barrington (FCA 767 captain):"In fact I was thinking how well balanced the flight model is now. I was able to hand fly with the same degree of smoothness and stability that I get in real life."No, this is not an ad. He said it in relation to something we were discussing in Beta, not flight model related.Tero

Like most posters here I also have both and I tend to fly the 737 much more. I prefer the sounds of the Level D (which isn't to say that it is more realistic, I really have no idea about that - I just like it more!) and it does have IRS modelled (which isn't a big deal to me). What I thoroughly dislike about Level D is the panel though which TO ME is very uninvolving and plain looking. All the systems are there but how they are presented doesn't cut it for me. The rest of the plane is top notch and you won't be disappointed with either.

You're right, Gary. You always have been. You always will be.

>You have the 737NG right? If you count both the 737NG and>800/900 (which you really need to get the full protential,>system wise) the cost is really significantly higher, I prefer>soft-copy manuals, I print a checklist, Start learning, if I>come in problems I can easily use the search tool, much>quicker.>No I don't have the 737NG 600/700 and I have had it conformed that I don't need both versions and the only thing you miss by just get the 800/900 is the 600/700 versions of the plane.I prefer good printed manuals.Neverheless I'm more and more inclined to agree with you that the 767 is the better product.

Tero!Nice to hear from you man! Well, glad to see LDS now uses some kind of nav data. Back when I first demo'd the program, very shortly after its initial release, there was no nav data.I guess some "brainiac," at LDS figured it would be good for the users to start off with nothing. All told, I spent more time setting the whole thing up than the actual flight time I got from flying the flight. IMHO, not fun. . .to say the least.Regardless Tero, one issue maybe addressed. But it still doesn't change my opinion of how great PMDG treats their valued customers. . .excuse me. . .that is. . ."captains."Gary Hawk

>FWIW, owning both products I'd say the PMDG flight model is>edgy and unbalanced. A lot harder to fly by hand than the>Level-D flight model.>>Here's a comment from Dave Barrington (FCA 767 captain):>>"In fact I was thinking how well balanced the flight model is>now. I was able to hand fly with the same degree of smoothness>and stability that I get in real life.">>No, this is not an ad. He said it in relation to something we>were discussing in Beta, not flight model related.>>Tero Well Tero sir (You you know I respect you) if you were a 747 pilot your opinion on flight dynamics would hold some weight in regards to a 747 but as it stands I know 3 rw pilots on the beta who say there is nothing that comes close to the 747 than the PMDG offering. As for PIC, well we already know pilots use it because it is that good. I wish this constant bickering back and forth over PIC vs PMDG would stop and we start appreciating what both have offered us for less than 100 bucks.[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]

Well said Randy... :-) I feel honored to work with some of these guys...

Gary,To be exact, LDS has always used navdata: waypoints, airports, VORs, NDBs and all of that.What we didn't have a lot at first was Procedures for different airports. There were about ~20 major airfields in the release procedure file, but in a matter of days people started uploading procedures to Avsim and Bill van Caulart put those also up at LDSflyingclub's web site.So, unless it was a matter of life and death, it shouldn't have prevented anyone from flying the aircraft (unless, like said, they would die if not using a SID for departing or a STAR for arriving...). Much less since the procedure side of it was covered in a few days to a couple of weeks from the initial release.Be reasonable with these "reviews", that's all I ask. It's not good for anyone, if you create negativity around issues that aren't real issues. And you know it yourself too.Tero

Randy,I was referring to the 737NG flight model in the msg.As far as I know the 747 flight model is good. I have only one gripe with it so far, which is the lazyness in roll. I've heard from numerous 744 pilots that it's actually almost as responsive as a C172 in the roll axis, whereas the PMDG model roll-rate seems different. But, again... if the real 744 pilots feel it's spot on, then it is spot on. :). I have a way of believing them. ;) Certainly it's a lot different than a 767 or 757, but is it that different ?Tero

Ah sorry missunderstood (not the first time ;-)) You know the roll rate was talked about often, it was actaully too fast then one 747-400 pilot worked directly with the team to get it at it's present state. I cannot comment on how real it is, only the lack of concern after it was finalized by the testers and other 747 Pilots.[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]