Oh without a doubt, the problem is the payware alternatives are still pretty rough.

 

I would be surprised if you tried Pro ATC, and still thought that. 

To me, if FSX ATC would only stick with the STAR I give it, and wait until the appx normal point to start vectoring to the final

 

approach course, it would be fine. Or good enough for gov work.. But it throws the STAR I give it totally out the window.

 

That is precisely what PROATC-X does, check out the descent and approach phase of the video I posted earlier in this thread.It starts about 2:05:00 minutes into the video.

 

Tom Cain

 

PS Why is this thread in the PMDG forum? It does explain why one of my posts was deleted yesterday, as I only put full names here to abide by the rules here (Even though I don't agree with it) and assumed it was in the more generic forums like Hangar Chat, FSX or P3D forums, where a topic like this is usually.

 

 

PS Why is this thread in the PMDG forum? It does explain why one of my posts was deleted yesterday, as I only put full names here to abide by the rules here (Even though I don't agree with it) and assumed it was in the more generic forums like Hangar Chat, FSX or P3D forums, where a topic like this is usually.

 

I appreciate that, Tom.

 

You make a good point, but when I initially read it I left it because it related somewhat to our products in the vein of "how do I get the realistic aircraft to work within the confines of the not as realistic ATC?" Since that would be helpful for our products, I left it. Definitely on the fringe, though.

I didn't know this discussion will go such way... sorry for that guys.

 

What I know is, when I asked the question I focused on developing immersion of my pmdg product because I will not change it to anything else anyway so improvements with extra add ons is all I can do to make the sim deeper.

No problem, it's just I picked this thread out of the most recent posted section, and assumed  it was in the one of  the general forum sections, due to it's nature, that was my bad!! You know what they say about those that assume? :smile:

 

Tom Cain

I always find it interesting when these threads come up that they always seem to focus on vectoring and SID and STAR use. The real purpose of ATC is traffic separation not just ordering you around. Until there’s a way to do this with an offline add-on none of them do the real job of ATC.

Add me to the list of users that use default ATC only for takeoff and landing. At least the tower keeps AI from pulling out in front of you when on approach. I also listen to the default ATC to give me some situational awareness.

I always find it interesting when these threads come up that they always seem to focus on vectoring and SID and STAR use. The real purpose of ATC is traffic separation not just ordering you around. Until there’s a way to do this with an offline add-on none of them do the real job of ATC.

Add me to the list of users that use default ATC only for takeoff and landing. At least the tower keeps AI from pulling out in front of you when on approach. I also listen to the default ATC to give me some situational awareness.

 

The purpose of the real ATC system  is to safely control the large volume of air traffic, not only enroute but arriving and departing busy airports. That is what sids and stars, and approach plates are for. The pilot  has to learn how to navigate the different classes of airspace, around our airports in a safe manner, even prior to his or her first solo.  If one is interested in learning something while flying a simulator, and not just boring holes in the simulated sky, then using a good ATC program is a great way to learn. The default ATC teaches the sim pilot  very little if anything in my opinion. Pro ATC does a good job of simulating real world ATC, and one can learn a great deal by using it. I practice Rnav approaches, NDB approaches, VOR approaches, ILS approaches,  and holds on approach and the use of approach plates on almost all of my flights. You can't do any of that with default ATC. 

I practice Rnav approaches, NDB approaches, VOR approaches, ILS approaches, and holds on approach and the use of approach plates on almost all of my flights. You can't do any of that with default ATC.

 

 

You don’t need ATC at all to fly SIDS/STARS, holds, or any approach procedures in the sim.  My point was that when using offline ATC you don’t get any protected airspace.  Does Pro ATC make you hold when another aircraft is shooting an approach in IMC , or does it just hold you for the sake of holding?  Does it prevent other aircraft from starting an approach when you’re outbound on a procedure turn?  I agree that the default ATC isn’t the best to learn all the phraseology, or procedures.  Pro ATC is probably better for that, but anyone wishing for a truly dynamic ATC should look into PilotEdge or something similar.     

You don’t need ATC at all to fly SIDS/STARS, holds, or any approach procedures in the sim.  My point was that when using offline ATC you don’t get any protected airspace.  Does Pro ATC make you hold when another aircraft is shooting an approach in IMC , or does it just hold you for the sake of holding?  Does it prevent other aircraft from starting an approach when you’re outbound on a procedure turn?  I agree that the default ATC isn’t the best to learn all the phraseology, or procedures.  Pro ATC is probably better for that, but anyone wishing for a truly dynamic ATC should look into PilotEdge or something similar.     

 

Pilot edge is OK for VFR, but for an aircraft like a 737, it is like a whale swimming in a Goldfish bowl. 

 I find watching the videos with ProATC-X in them painful to listen to, while it is certainly far better than default without a doubt there's still a long way to go. As for being able to learn from it, I'd hazard that for the majority of simmers with no real world experience to go from would only pick up more simisms.

I'd hazard that for the majority of simmers with no real world experience to go from would only pick up more simisms.

 

 

I have bit of a different view. Offline ATC can help simmer to learn more about their aircraft before they fly online. Let's take some recurring "bug reports" from offline ATC forum:

 

1) "ATC wants me to fly AWAY from the airport on the approach. What gives!?!"

 

Complaint caused by the fact, that some simmers haven't flown approaches that require you to execute a procedure turn. By using the default ATC, people get so used to getting vectors from the enroute exit to the ILS.

 

2) "I flew directly from the STAR exit to the FAF, but ATC told me I was flying in the wrong direction. I want my money back!"

 

This kind of reports come up, because simmers listen which STAR and approach to fly, but sometimes forget to listen, which approach transition they need to fly.

 

3) "ATC told me to start descending before my aircraft's TOD. And don't tell me I'm wrong, PMDG knows how to calculate TOD. This ATC program is so broken!"

 

I don't have any idea where this comes from, but it seems to be a common misconception, that ATC would know where the aircraft's calculated TOD is at any given time. Also early descent seem to be totally unacceptable.

 

The other variant would be "I started descending when my aircraft told me to reset the MCP altitude, but ATC told me to climb back to my cruise altitude. Please fix!". Some simmer seem to think that the box is always correct and ATC should just read out loud what is in the box (even if they have yet to programmed in the STAR and arrival, that would push the TOD further down the route).

 

Based on this, my view is that there are simisms that offline ATC helps to fix. Helped me a lot when I was starting simming.

 

 

I have bit of a different view. Offline ATC can help simmer to learn more about their aircraft before they fly online. Let's take some recurring "bug reports" from offline ATC forum:

 

 Ok so my reference to "only pick up more simisms." was off. A certain understanding of flying and IFR procedures is certainly helpful and based on those comments from the Bug list, those users apparently have little or none. So yes you can learn from ProATC-X, but the simism comment is valid.

Pilot edge is OK for VFR

Not sure what you mean by this. Although you can fly VFR PIlotEdge is designed for IFR. There are many real 737 flights possible within the coverage area, and the rumor is they’ll be expanding coverage soon to more large airports outside of ZLA airspace.

Not sure what you mean by this. Although you can fly VFR PIlotEdge is designed for IFR. There are many real 737 flights possible within the coverage area, and the rumor is they’ll be expanding coverage soon to more large airports outside of ZLA airspace.

 

I fly for a VA, and Pilotedge just doesn't work for that . Less than a half dozen major airports if that many. I fly all over the US, Canada, Mexico, and Europe in a one week period averaging a couple of flights a day. If I was going to putt around in a Cessna 172, it would be OK.