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Cruachan

Discussion of HDR & Bloom in P3D

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Loving this tool, but I noticed some scenery especially white colored ones get overblown. Turning down HDR brightness seems to fix it but I think it would also negate the effect of the tool no?

Hi Shanan,

 

Perhaps a successful experience with this tool is monitor dependent. I did not have to calibrate my monitor (ROG seem to have done a great job) but perhaps there are units out there that do require some optimisation. My conclusions are very positive, so much so that I can't see myself flying without these lighting enhancements..ever! Yes, there were a few reservations at the beginning, the main one being the clipping of bloom noted here and there. This was fixed to acceptable levels by reducing the Bloom setting in HDR settings to 0.3. My other settings are Brightness 1.10 and Saturation 0.8. With ORBX and, indeed, the default textures the Simming environment just appears much more vibrant and natural and is akin to what I see in the real world. Also, I haven't encountered the VC lighting problem as yet.

 

If it's any help, here are my P3D config entries:

 

[GRAPHICS]

HDR_BRIGHTNESS=1.100000

HDR_BLOOM_THRESHOLD=3.000000

HDR_BLOOM_MAGNITUDE=0.300000

HDR_BLOOM_BLUR_SIGMA=0.800000

TONEMAP_DAY_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.280000

TONEMAP_NIGHT_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.130000

HDR_SATURATION=0.800000

 

RSP v1.1

 

Terrain & Shadows:

Terrain Brightness: Medium Shadow Intensity: High

 

Autogen:

Enable Autogen Brightness Tweak

 

Clouds:

Enable Cloud Shader with alternative Popcorn Fix (N.B. REX TD with Soft Clouds - Cloud Sizing Algorithm is unchecked and the slider is set at 0.5 Default)

 

HDR:

Step 1

 

I believe Pe11e is still fine tuning his tool so perhaps some further refinements will prove helpful. I wonder how he is getting on? Don't wish to impose unnecessary pressure, but...... :smile:

 

Regards,

Mike

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No.  Author does not use HDR.

I know he doesn't but I'm wondering if turning down the HDR brightness would offset the effect of the terrain brightness tweak in the tool.

 

Seems to be the case though.

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Well - I've given it my best shot ... but I just can't live with P3D HDR (RSP or not).

 

I'm not a professional photographer, but have worked as a graphic designer (don't ask for how long!!). I've sent a lifetime correcting photographs for lack of shadow detail, bleached out highlights etc.

 

To me, HDR mode is utterly "cheesy" - and totally unrealistic - regardless of how long your eye is supposed to adjust to light and shade in RL. Virtually all the screenshots I see from the sim in HDR mode look (to me) over-saturated, over-contrasty and generally nowhere near as good as non-HDR equivalents. Also - do we seem "bloom" in RL? No! It's a *camera/lens* effect. I want to see, in a sim, what I would see with my own eyes - not what I might see in a photograph.

 

All these wonderfully complex arguments for monitor compensation don't cut it for me either - sorry - but this is my own personal opinion only.

 

HOWEVER - I think RSP does a great job in tweaking the palette in every other respect, so I'm really keen on using it and looking forward to whatever enhancements it may bring!

 

Adam.

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Hi Shanan,

 

Perhaps a successful experience with this tool is monitor dependent. I did not have to calibrate my monitor (ROG seem to have done a great job) but perhaps there are units out there that do require some optimisation. My conclusions are very positive, so much so that I can't see myself flying without these lighting enhancements..ever! Yes, there were a few reservations at the beginning, the main one being the clipping of bloom noted here and there. This was fixed to acceptable levels by reducing the Bloom setting in HDR settings to 0.3. My other settings are Brightness 1.10 and Saturation 0.8. With ORBX and, indeed, the default textures the Simming environment just appears much more vibrant and natural and is akin to what I see in the real world. Also, I haven't encountered the VC lighting problem as yet.

 

If it's any help, here are my P3D config entries:

 

[GRAPHICS]

HDR_BRIGHTNESS=1.100000

HDR_BLOOM_THRESHOLD=3.000000

HDR_BLOOM_MAGNITUDE=0.300000

HDR_BLOOM_BLUR_SIGMA=0.800000

TONEMAP_DAY_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.280000

TONEMAP_NIGHT_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.130000

HDR_SATURATION=0.800000

 

RSP v1.1

 

Terrain & Shadows:

Terrain Brightness: Medium Shadow Intensity: High

 

Autogen:

Enable Autogen Brightness Tweak

 

Clouds:

Enable Cloud Shader with alternative Popcorn Fix (N.B. REX TD with Soft Clouds - Cloud Sizing Algorithm is unchecked and the slider is set at 0.5 Default)

 

HDR:

Step 1

 

I believe Pe11e is still fine tuning his tool so perhaps some further refinements will prove helpful. I wonder how he is getting on? Don't wish to impose unnecessary pressure, but...... :smile:

 

Regards,

Mike

 

Thanks will give it a go. I was adjusting HDR Brightness, maybe I should have been adjusting the Bloom levels instead.

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I fee like an idiot, but I can't figure out what is going on.

 

I downloaded the 1.1 and the lastest release from a few minutes ago. On the initial opening I hit restore as it recommends. Then, I did the settings as I wanted. I then loaded the sim up, and have no terrain textures.

 

I am running the latest version of P3D, running the .exe in admin, have deleted shader files and still no luck. I then hit restore and now I still don't have any ground textures.

 

I am not sure if anyone else is having an issue like this. I remember someone posting the last thread about the same issue, but they weren't running P3D 3.2. I hate to be the one to have the issue, was just hoping to give this thing a quick spin.

 

I did have v1 package working very well.

Hey pilot! have you  fix the textures problem? I have kind of the same issue here, download the latest version of this tool, and now I have blurry terrain textures.

I'm running P3D version 3.2, trying to fix it by restoring the shaders but not luck.

 

I feel like I have to re-install the Sim again, and to be honest that's a pain, sim plus all the add-ons is about 250GB and it takes a lot of time to make it work all good.

Please if anyone have resolve this issue, please can you help me to fix it? Thanks! 

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Well - I've given it my best shot ... but I just can't live with P3D HDR (RSP or not).

 

I'm not a professional photographer, but have worked as a graphic designer (don't ask for how long!!). I've sent a lifetime correcting photographs for lack of shadow detail, bleached out highlights etc.

 

To me, HDR mode is utterly "cheesy" - and totally unrealistic - regardless of how long your eye is supposed to adjust to light and shade in RL. Virtually all the screenshots I see from the sim in HDR mode look (to me) over-saturated, over-contrasty and generally nowhere near as good as non-HDR equivalents. Also - do we seem "bloom" in RL? No! It's a *camera/lens* effect. I want to see, in a sim, what I would see with my own eyes - not what I might see in a photograph.

 

All these wonderfully complex arguments for monitor compensation don't cut it for me either - sorry - but this is my own personal opinion only.

 

HOWEVER - I think RSP does a great job in tweaking the palette in every other respect, so I'm really keen on using it and looking forward to whatever enhancements it may bring!

 

Adam.

 

 

Thanks for the comments on that.  One thing I really like about bloom is the light really pops off the aircraft when seeing it from an external view; particularly in Flyby camera.  Have you ever watched the aircraft while it passed under a cloud (with cloud shadows on), and then watched is at came out from under it?  Really, really nice.  Really seems to capture the effect of sun reflecting of metal extremely well.

 

However, I haven't watched that with HDR off...  :Tounge:

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Have you ever watched the aircraft while it passed under a cloud (with cloud shadows on), and then watched is at came out from under it?  Really, really nice.  Really seems to capture the effect of sun reflecting of metal extremely well.

 

However, I haven't watched that with HDR off...  :Tounge:

 

It's pretty impressive with HDR off as well :wink:

 

Under *very specific* conditions the HDR effect can *almost* look OK - but as soon as you move the view (even a fraction) the sim gets either totally bleached out or is too dark/contrasty.

 

I'd like to see in a sim what I see in Real Life. Our eyes/brains do a simply amazing job in coping with diverse lighting conditions - why shackle a sim to what only a *camera* can see?

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adam - I find it odd that you get more saturation with HDR on vs off. mine is the other way around. I have a lot less color and saturation with HDR on.

 

with HDR off, its too saturated and heavy and there are no adjustments outside of shader code changes.

 

I defineitely agree that a sim should replicate the eye and not a camera. that's been a strong frustration of mine for quite some time. The HDR in P3D changes the hue of the sky quite a bit on my system. You can create a solid color sky texture and then adjust bloom and take screenshots and see what the output is and you'll see what I mean.

 

but bloom does exist to the eye in my opinion. just look at clouds and when they reflect they seem to pulsate a bit and if youkeep staring they will get brighter...but the brightenss seems to be a very bright blue green to me. theres far too much red in default flightsim but its almost required just to get warmth into the ground in v3.2. I think the ideal color for cloud lighting is somewhere between a 254 254 255 and 255 254 255 (blue bias towards a purple) but its not really right for ground.

 

my .02

 

I wish I knew how to modify cloud shader code so that bloom had one point less red in it. or one less red and green.

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It's pretty impressive with HDR off as well :wink:

 

Under *very specific* conditions the HDR effect can *almost* look OK - but as soon as you move the view (even a fraction) the sim gets either totally bleached out or is too dark/contrasty.

 

I'd like to see in a sim what I see in Real Life. Our eyes/brains do a simply amazing job in coping with diverse lighting conditions - why shackle a sim to what only a *camera* can see?

 

Nice, good to know.  I'll have to try HDR off.

 

On the camera.  It's a useful effect to have for making videos  :smile:

 

But I am with Sightseer on Bloom.  Bloom is definitely something you notice IRL.  If your eyes are centered on the aircraft panel IRL, and then you pay attention to your peripheral vision, it is clear that everything outside the aircraft is quite bright because your pupils have dilated (wider aperture).  That's bloom. 

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Hi Mike,

After fiddling around with my own settings for a while, I decided to go exactly with your recommendations. Glad I did!

I think that you have got as near as useful until we see the fruits of the full release. I shall fly with these settings for now.

Many thanks for your analyses.

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I'm not sure "bloom" exists as such in RL, but dazzling/blinding certainly does!!!

 

There's something not quite right in your setup if you think default P3D is "too red", IMHO. Interesting also that your HDR effects are the opposite to mine!!!

 

I love scenery - and particularly the scenery in NZ - and post hundreds of screenshots in the ORBX forums, where you'll often see images that are almost indistinguishable from "the real thing". That's kind of what I aim for, but I agree - many people just enjoy all the effects that the sim can create - regardless of how real they may (or may not be) each to his own!

 

I'm not sure whether screenshots will work on this thread, but here are three of mine - all with HDR off:

 

I admit there may be a shade too much magenta in the sky in this first one - but that may be due to the time of day and my sky palettes (as defined by REX or FEX):

nzmf_322_01_684_1350.jpg

 

A bit contrasty, but otherwise close to the real thing (I've flown in that very aircraft):
nzqn_quad_08_158_1350.jpg

 

I don't think you get get VC lighting like this with HDR on:

nzmf_322_07_893_1350.jpg

 

Adam.


But I am with Sightseer on Bloom.  Bloom is definitely something you notice IRL.  If your eyes are centered on the aircraft panel IRL, and then you pay attention to your peripheral vision, it is clear that everything outside the aircraft is quite bright because your pupils have dilated (wider aperture).  That's bloom. 

 

In the friendliest of ways, I take issue (a bit) with that!! I always understood "bloom" to mean the "halo" effect around bright objects - not the dynamic overall eye/iris/aperture compensation type thing (if you know what I mean!). I think that effect is achieved in P3D by another means (whatever you might call it) but invoked by the HDR effect.

 

From "Wikipedia"

 

Bloom (sometimes referred to as light bloom or glow) is a computer graphics effect used in video games, demos and high dynamic range rendering (HDRR) to reproduce an imaging artifact of real-world cameras. The effect produces fringes (or feathers) of light extending from the borders of bright areas in an image, contributing to the illusion of an extremely bright light overwhelming the camera or eye capturing the scene.

 

Not sure who moderates this thread/topic - but if I'm getting seriously sidetracked/off-topic please shout (and I'll shaddap)!!!!

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I'm not sure "bloom" exists as such in RL, but dazzling/blinding certainly does!!!

 

There's something not quite right in your setup if you think default P3D is "too red", IMHO. Interesting also that your HDR effects are the opposite to mine!!!

 

I love scenery - and particularly the scenery in NZ - and post hundreds of screenshots in the ORBX forums, where you'll often see images that are almost indistinguishable from "the real thing". That's kind of what I aim for, but I agree - many people just enjoy all the effects that the sim can create - regardless of how real they may (or may not be) each to his own!

 

I'm not sure whether screenshots will work on this thread, but here are three of mine - all with HDR off:

 

I admit there may be a shade too much magenta in the sky in this first one - but that may be due to the time of day and my sky palettes (as defined by REX or FEX):

nzmf_322_01_684_1350.jpg

 

A bit contrasty, but otherwise close to the real thing (I've flown in that very aircraft):

nzqn_quad_08_158_1350.jpg

 

I don't think you get get VC lighting like this with HDR on:

nzmf_322_07_893_1350.jpg

 

Adam.

 

In the friendliest of ways, I take issue (a bit) with that!! I always understood "bloom" to mean the "halo" effect around bright objects - not the dynamic overall eye/iris/aperture compensation type thing (if you know what I mean!). I think that effect is achieved in P3D by another means (whatever you might call it) but invoked by the HDR effect.

 

From "Wikipedia"

 

Bloom (sometimes referred to as light bloom or glow) is a computer graphics effect used in video games, demos and high dynamic range rendering (HDRR) to reproduce an imaging artifact of real-world cameras. The effect produces fringes (or feathers) of light extending from the borders of bright areas in an image, contributing to the illusion of an extremely bright light overwhelming the camera or eye capturing the scene.

 

Not sure who moderates this thread/topic - but if I'm getting seriously sidetracked/off-topic please shout (and I'll shaddap)!!!!

 

 

Great screenshots!  Yowzer, seems I completely misunderstood what bloom is!  Thanks Adamski!

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What exactly does the popcorn cloud fix do?  Does it have any impact on FPS?

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well if the halo is supposed to be brightness then why would it be different or brighter than the bright object its supposed to be part of?

 

To me 'bloom' is that effect where when you look at something bright it tends to overwhelm your eye and it appears to get brighter as you look at it (like clouds for instance) XPlane does this thing where when you look at the sun it gets brighter. many racing sims Ive played do that as well. You get blinded by the sun if you look at it but when you look away it gets smaller and less blinding. That's what bloom should be IMO. this bit about 'look up and the sky gets dark and look down and everything brightens' - that's just not right (IMO). Bloom should be about the apparent brightness of sources of light (reflections or otherwise)

 

but Adam - most lighting in FS is red or reddish. it has a tendency to produce a certain look in the clouds that can be good but I don't think real clouds have that much red in them. theres more blue there. even when they look yellow or brown its just that they aren't reflecting a lot of light or theyre just not very dense. its not me or my settings. look at the sky textures if you don't believe me. chances are good that the second pixel will be red biased in some way.

 

is it possible to pull this sub discussion out of this thread? Id love to continue it but...

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I've moved this subset here for clarity - 

 

 

Vic

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I've moved this subset here for clarity - 

 

Thanks, Vic - much appreciated!

 

Adam.

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If it's any help, here are my P3D config entries:

 

[GRAPHICS]

HDR_BRIGHTNESS=1.100000

HDR_BLOOM_THRESHOLD=3.000000

HDR_BLOOM_MAGNITUDE=0.300000

HDR_BLOOM_BLUR_SIGMA=0.800000

TONEMAP_DAY_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.280000

TONEMAP_NIGHT_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.130000

HDR_SATURATION=0.800000

 

 

 

Hey Cruachan,  I tried that last night. I like it.  Thanks for sharing.  On RSP I use Highest terrain brights because VC shadows are too dark otherwise.

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Has anyone actually considered the remote possibility that an improperly calibrated screen can exacerbate the HDR issue people are having?  I only ask because I visit AVSIM both from at home and at work, so I see the images posted here through two different monitors.  At home, my display is professionally calibrated (primarily for graphics and photography work) and at work, it's all default settings so I DO notice differences in what people have submitted.  Now, take the calibration under consideration and couple it with whatever settings you may  or may not be using and presto, you get a result that is either good or bad.  I hear a lot about too much color or brightness, which is easily controlled within the HDR settings of P3D.  LM has done a decent job refining that functionality, and to be honest, on my end with my display settings and P3D settings, I can run saturation and bloom much higher and it actually makes things better looking.  Granted, I can post screenshots here of what I see, but you may see something different.

 

Make sense?

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Has anyone actually considered the remote possibility that an improperly calibrated screen can exacerbate the HDR issue people are having? 

 

It does make sense but to me - but reminds of a question I've been meaning to ask for months (It's kind of related - honest!!).

 

I appreciate HDR (and RSP) settings actaully change the palette in P3D - and that a screenshot will properly record those values.

 

However - if I change anything (contrast, brightness etc.) in the Windows desktop, the output to the monitor reflects those changes (and looks good) - but the saved screenshot ignores these settings and appears to use some P3D default <?>.

 

Am I being really stupid - and doing something fundamentally wrong? How can I make the saved screenshot save what is actually being sent out to monitor via my GFX card?

 

I'm aware that fiddling with the [physical] monitor settings (ie. on the monitor itself) can't possibly affect a saved image - but I do feel there ought to be a way of saving what the card produces - as modified by the Windows CP.

 

Adam.

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It does make sense but to me - but reminds of a question I've been meaning to ask for months (It's kind of related - honest!!).

 

I appreciate HDR (and RSP) settings actaully change the palette in P3D - and that a screenshot will properly record those values.

 

However - if I change anything (contrast, brightness etc.) in the Windows desktop, the output to the monitor reflects those changes (and looks good) - but the saved screenshot ignores these settings and appears to use some P3D default <?>.

 

Am I being really stupid - and doing something fundamentally wrong? How can I make the saved screenshot save what is actually being sent out to monitor via my GFX card?

 

I'm aware that fiddling with the [physical] monitor settings (ie. on the monitor itself) can't possibly affect a saved image - but I do feel there ought to be a way of saving what the card produces - as modified by the Windows CP.

 

Adam.

That is a very good question, to which I don't have a definitive answer at present.  I never gave that much thought either, which lends credence to how we perceive what is seen on our screens.  What may look fantastic to one person might be bad to another.  Even if we all lived by one set of settings, I am pretty sure we'd still see the screenshots differently.  At work, I have a dual monitor setup and I racked my brain one day trying to get both monitors set to the same settings.  One is a different model than the other and even with just adjusting brightness, color temp and contrast, I get two different variations...rather frustrating.

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Ok well, this is the problem really. We all have different monitors and who knows what each of us are set for. I have an inexpensive monitor with color temp set to neutral and Im using one of the presets called 'graphics'. I really think that professional calibration may be counter intuitive because most people wont have that same calibration. Most people will have a monitor and a driver and they'll use the settings that the in crowd tell them to. Whether its right or not, that's generally what happens.

 

I know that NVidia CP color adjustments will show up in screenshots and Ive never adjusted windows colors. I again go back to the 'default hits a wider audience' concept.

 

In the end, we cant all see the same thing. (I don't think...could be wrong...as always)

 

EDIT: not to say that professional calibration is wrong. its the best one can get Im sure but if the goal is to make someone else see perfection then it probably cant happen.

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Ok well, this is the problem really. We all have different monitors and who knows what each of us are set for. I have an inexpensive monitor with color temp set to neutral and Im using one of the presets called 'graphics'. I really think that professional calibration may be counter intuitive because most people wont have that same calibration. Most people will have a monitor and a driver and they'll use the settings that the in crowd tell them to. Whether its right or not, that's generally what happens.

 

I know that NVidia CP color adjustments will show up in screenshots and Ive never adjusted windows colors. I again go back to the 'default hits a wider audience' concept.

 

In the end, we cant all see the same thing. (I don't think...could be wrong...as always)

 

EDIT: not to say that professional calibration is wrong. its the best one can get Im sure but if the goal is to make someone else see perfection then it probably cant happen.

I wear glasses, so I guess I'm further screwed. lol

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join the club. I have an incredibly rare eyesight disorder that I fight with. I get by I think.

 

(and I need glasses :) )

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join the club. I have an incredibly rare eyesight disorder that I fight with. I get by I think.

 

(and I need glasses :) )

Is it just coincidence your username is sightseer then? :D

 

Kidding of course.  I have gone through many a discussion about issues with monitor calibrations, what people see, accuracy of color, etc.  I have to echo what what you stated about getting screenshots to come out correctly, but that sounds like a tough thing to do.

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I can't afford a device to calibrate my monitor.  I really wish I had one though.  But this is hands down the best website I was able to find to help you--immensely--calibrate your monitor.

 

Includes images and in depth explanations for checking and adjusting:

 

Contrast

 

Clock and Phase (for VGA)

 

Sharpness

 

Gamma

 

Black Level

 

White Saturation

 

Gradient (Banding)

 

Inversion (pixel-walk)

 

Response time

Quick Response time check

Response time test - ghosting

Input lag test

 

Viewing Angle

 

Contrast ratio

 

Subpixel layout

 

 

It's not hard, and includes lots of instructions.  It does take time, though.  Be prepared to spend 30 minutes to an hour on it.  Some steps you might want to skip.

 

 

 

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

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