Congratulations james on your hard work

 

Ken - sage words as always.

Somehow I don't see that as even a remote possibility, given that the cockpit door was designed to withstand a grenade blast...

In the early 1930, Max Wertheimer proposed the following scenario to his close friend, Albert Einstein:

 

An old clattery auto is to drive a stretch of 2 miles, up and down a hill. Because it is so old, it cannot drive the first mile - the ascent - faster than an average speed of 15 miles an hour.

 

Question: how fast does it have to drive the second mile - on going down, it can, of course, go faster - in order to obtain an average speed (for the whole distance) of 30 miles an hour?

 

I'll save you the trouble of trying to work out the required speed, the car cannot do it. Einstein's answer, which I believe was 45 miles per hour, was wrong.

 

So, why create an obviously unrealistic scenario and ask people a question about it? It's not about the realism of the scenario, is it?

 

I hope that adds a bit of perspective.

I was not even going to respond to the "Air Terrorism" fantasy scenario. Yes, the doors are described by the manufacture as "bullet proof."

 

I didn't want to assume, but it did appear as if you had misunderstood the point of the scenario.

 

Please see my response to Bill.

 

Interesting that nobody even asked the obvious question in that case. If the right seat passenger had experience in hobby level desktop simulation would there be a better chance of a successful outcome.

That question was precisely what I had in my mind with my "morally objectionable arrogant" scenario. I borrowed your quotation marks for effect.

 

Let's work through it. You have two options for possible pilot, the simmer, and the novice. If you say, there is no chance of it ending in a positive way, because sim experience is useless in real world flying, then, logically, you can pick the novice without hesitation since it doesn't matter who crashes the plane. If you choose the simmer over the novice, then whatever the reason is, it will be tied to some form of belief that the simmer will have a better chance, even if that chance is only 0.0001 over the novice's 0.0000001 (or whatever comes just before 0).

 

What I was really interested in was to see if anyone who had said it would make no difference to the outcome regardless of simmer or novice, would still choose the simmer over the novice despite believing that sim flying would be of no benefit whatsoever.

 

You may now carry on being condescending towards those of us who haven't approached the subject in th exact same way as you did.

ill be honest. in the single pilot incap situation, id rather have noone there than a hobbyist or novice (or anyone). Single pilot ops would be by far my preferred option.

Francois just curious. Have you been left seat in an aircraft off the ground as a student or PIC?

In the military we had a term for these far fetched scenarios designed only for the curiosity of an individual: Mental Masturbation.  

Francois just curious. Have you been left seat in an aircraft off the ground as a student or PIC?

No, I haven't, Ron. But it is immaterial to my question. The hours that I have done flying right seat has taught me enough about real world flying to know that there is very little from the sim that prepares one for the sensation of taking the yoke in a real plane. Sure, I know what the Cessna or Piper Cherokee will to when I turn the yoke. I know how to interpret the instruments. Do I know how to do the pre flight inspection? Well, yes, I know what it involves. Can I do a pre flight inspection on a Cessna 182? No. I have no idea what would feel wrong on the elevators or what impurities in the fuel look like. Should I do a pre flight inspection? No! Not even for a laugh. Can I land the plane? Maybe by accident, but not by design.

 

When I talk to pilots about my simming, I always point out that the most obvious difference between the sim and the real Cessna or Cherokee is the twist in my stomach. When I take control of the Piper, my hands sweat, I know I am out of my comfort zone. That is not present on the sim. And I have had some wonderful conversations with an Emirates 777 pilot and a Ryanair 737 pilot. Their enthusiasm for imparting knowledge was really amazing. Both of them knew PMDG, both of them spoke highly of PMDG, neither one of them was condescending to my comments, and both were happy to answer my questions. Neither one of them thinks me a pilot. Nor do I.

 

I am not someone who thinks that my hours on the sim makes me a pilot. I will openly admit that simming for me is not even about thinking that I am a pilot or acquiring the skills of a pilot. I take a grim view of the RTFM brigade, but not because I think learning is unnecessary, but because for me, simming is simming, and simming is not flying, and life comes first.

 

I try to be a pragmatist, if not quite a realist, and my questions in this thread were about gaining insight into how others think about simming, most definitely not about what I think others should think about simming. It is not my place to tell others what to think, that would be, in my view, boring in any case. I am interested in what others think, and trying to understand why they think that. There is great value in trying to see things from the perspective of others, and understanding does not imply agreement.

In the military we had a term for these far fetched scenarios designed only for the curiosity of an individual: Mental Masturbation.

 

Ken, you are verging on becoming ridiculous. The invitations I receive from the military are to something called War Games. When I do participate in those, it is for the purposes of assessing the logic involved in the decisions of the participants. Never have I been asked to participate in mental masturbation programs. Your personal views on the validity of such exercises are your own, but your reasoning are subject to the same principles of mathematical logic as the rest of us, and in that field, you are at a distinct disadvantage. Please do not be rude for the sake of it, whatever you may think about the application of imagination, there is sufficient scientific evidence that points to the benefits of imagination in developing problem solving skills for even the military to engage in exercises of imagination.

 

I suggest we leave it at that, because we are now moving out of the field of aviation and into the field of cognitive science, and from what you have demonstrated so far, that is not your strong point.

I always point out that the most obvious difference between the sim and the real Cessna or Cherokee is the twist in my stomach. When I take control of the Piper, my hands sweat, I know I am out of my comfort zone. That is not present on the sim.

That answer speaks wonderfully to what RW Pilots and instructers have been saying throughout the thread. The impact of the reality of the responsibility in ones hands and the knowledge that you are not competent for the task at altitude is a stomach twisting experience for sure.

 

Pointing out the stark differences between reality at altitude, and idle speculation on the ground behind a monitor can be startling, and far from elitest or arrogant. :wink:

The invitations I receive from the military are to something called War Games.

 

We have not used the term "War Games" in many decades. Someone who was really invited to participate would know that.

We have not used the term "War Games" in many decades. Someone who was really invited to participate would know that.

You would have received my original response in your inbox, it was over the top, and for that I apologise.

 

I have edited it here, because I think, despite our differences in opinion, you deserve a better response than the original one.

 

Please accept my apologies.

Francois, you seem to be forgetting the premise outlined below your signature. Perhaps a realignment with that ideal would suit..

That answer speaks wonderfully to what RW Pilots and instructers have been saying throughout the thread. The impact of the reality of the responsibility in ones hands and the knowledge that you are not competent for the task at altitude is a stomach twisting experience for sure.

Pointing out the stark differences between reality at altitude, and idle speculation on the ground behind a monitor can be startling, and far from elitest or arrogant. :wink:

I agree entirely, and as much as I love my sim, I would trade all however many thousands of hours I have on all PMDG planes for one hour at the controls, albeit right seat, of the Piper or Cessna. The sim is an expression of the desire to fly, it is not a substitute for the ability to fly.

 

It would never occur to me to tell the Emirates pilot how to fly his 777, I would just stand there smiling appreciatvely at his offer to bring me the exact route of his next flight from Dubai to Los Angeles so that I can program that into my 777. He is the pilot, I am the copycat.

Francois, you seem to be forgetting the premise outlined below your signature. Perhaps a realignment with that ideal would suit..

Yes, you are right. And just in time I think. Thank you.

:wink:

N400QW, on 22 Sept 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

Francois, you seem to be forgetting the premise outlined below your signature. Perhaps a realignment with that ideal would suit..

 

Yes, you are right. And just in time I think. Thank you.

We may not all have agreed on the same points but you sure win the prize for respect and decency.