Happy new year!

I came across this route today at flightaware site from QFA with a 747 aircraft.The route is between YSSY(Sydney) and Johannesburg (FAOR)

 

 

You can see it here 

 

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA63/history/20170104/0135Z/YSSY/FAOR

 

some Questions

 

1)Are there any special operations to fly this type of route?(most southern route  near antarctica )like NATs or Polar Routes ,special equipement/training etc?

 

2)The 747 has 4 engines so it is not suitable for ETOPs ( but LROPs qualified if i am right and 747-8i has now 330 ETOPs however)
-Could this flight be planned with max ETOPs/ LROPs 180 minutes ?

 

 

I made the flight plan route YSSY-FAOR with a 744 from the SimBrief site.As you can see the image below it gave me 360 minutes ETOPs time

 

 

 

In the case of 3 engines failure.

-Are 360 minutes enough for the 744 to divert?

-Why did it give me only ETOPs  and no LROPs? 

 

-Which are the main differences between ETOPS/LROPs procedures? (etp,cp mile rings,adequete airports etc)
-What extra/special do we need to take into consideration to plan a route such as that 

 

FAA Approval 330 Min ETOPs 747-8i

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2015-03-18-Boeing-747-8-Intercontinental-Receives-FAA-Approval-for-330-Minute-ETOPS

Your link to Boeing appears to redirect back to this page.

 

My understanding is that ETOPS and LROPS are sort of combined into the same thing these days; as things like fire suppression etc affect any plane not just twins.

 

Kyle may be able to elaborate a bit more on this, also see his video: 

 

SimBrief may have only given you ETOPS as it may not have all the data from LROPS. Also, ETOPS stands for 'Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards' which by its nature would not apply to a 747.

http://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA63/history/20170104/0135Z/YSSY/FAOR

 

That is the link.

 

A little off topic but I do prefer flightaware in Australia because it gives you the full route including step climbs and speeds. - David Lee

ICAO call it EDTO. Australia follows ICAO a lot, so look it up. It encompasses rules for long hops, whether you have 2 engine or 4. Let us know how you go...

 

Also, the route is a flex route or whatever they call it... takes advantage of winds.

ETOPS isn't limited to twins, and nowadays it doesn't even stand for Extended Twin OPerationS anymore, it's simply called ExTended OPerationS so it is pretty all-encompassing. Another thing that people have trouble with is the fact that a flight can be LROPS and not ETOPS. I flew (RW) Anchorage, AK to Tokyo a couple weeks ago (my first Pacific crossing!) and the flight required long range nav, but was not an ETOPS flight.

 

On a flight such as QF63, there are so many little islands out in the Pacific that ETOPS may not have been required, or only a small portion of the flight may have been in ETOPS rule airspace (admittedly I'm not as familiar with this part of the world). It is, however, assured they are outside the service volume of a VOR most of the time, thus requiring long range nav procedures. This procedure requires plotting and routine position checks for accuracy along the route.

 

I hope this helps a little. As I said, I'm not too familiar with that part of the world insofar as geography is concerned, but if you have procedural questions I'll be happy to help answer any questions.

This might be of interest.

 

 

http://www.avsim.com/topic/487679-flights-over-the-southern-pacific/

The short answer: ETOPS applies to twins operating more than 60 minutes from an adequate airport. Quads do not have to take ETOPS rules in to consideration until they are planning to operate more than 180 minutes from a suitable airport.

 

The main factors for quads are generally decompression/oxygen and/or terrain (ie driftdown) related.

 

The longer answer will have to wait until I am at a proper PC

...hi Simon!

 

Fire suppression, apu and engine oil consumption for the 747 can also play a factor for Aussies.

 

EDTO... look it up.

 

When you get there, search for "more than".... you should ping about 13 returns... saves you reading the entire document. Here, I'll even help you

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/105056/download?token=iwdq6K97

EDTO operations will involve 3 basic scenarios requiring an emergency diversion on these extended southern routes, in Qantas parlance they are illustrated in the third picture but are:

 

DPA - Decision Point All Engines

 

DPD - Emergency Descent to F140 then a diversion to a suitable alternate.

 

DP1 - Single Engine failure with drift down then three engine diversion to a suitable alternate.

 

PFPX allows you to create all three scenarios for a 744 model file; these can be run against you planned route against selected suitable airports - once you have checked them for sutiability (WX, NOTAMS, fire cover, availability windows etc).

 

You should ensure that your 744 model file has no maximum diversion time or range.  If necessary PFPX will add fuel to your flight plan fuel if needed to enable a diversion to the suitable alternate.

 

Most 744 operators that fly the routes over the CIS, Pacific, the Polar routes & the South Atlantic opted for extra Passenger Oxygen Bottles to allow for extended flight at a higher flight level of F140 due to issues with drift down, EDTO & higher terrain over Central Asia.

 

EDTO Ops at F140 allow for a better fuel burn than at F100; there is also an assumption that at F140 not all PAX will require OXY to assist with breathing once the cabin rate has stabilised.

 

 

 

1)Are there any special operations to fly this type of route?(most southern route  near antarctica )like NATs or Polar Routes ,special equipement/training etc?

 

 

Below a certain latitude, the aircraft is considered to be in "polar operations". This may limit what systems may be inoperative prior to flight. e.g. the following must be operative:

 

all airconditioning packs

both HF radios

Satcom

all engine generators

all Bus Tie Breakers

all emergency beacons (portable)

Fixed emergency beacon system (ELT)

Fuel quantity and temperature

All pitot static, AOA and window heating systems

All wing and nacelle anti-ice systems, etc, etc.

 

For variations, consult your own airline's Dispatch Deviation Guide :wink:

 

Cheers

John H Watson

 

 

On a flight such as QF63, there are so many little islands out in the Pacific that ETOPS may not have been required, or only a small portion of the flight may have been in ETOPS rule airspace (admittedly I'm not as familiar with this part of the world). It is, however, assured they are outside the service volume of a VOR most of the time, thus requiring long range nav procedures. This procedure requires plotting and routine position checks for accuracy along the route.

I hope this helps a little. As I said, I'm not too familiar with that part of the world insofar as geography is concerned, but if you have procedural questions I'll be happy to help answer any questions.

 

QF 63 and 64 to/from JNB don't operate over the pacific, but rather the southern ocean and indian ocean. There are few to no small islands that can take a 747 in this part of the world. It is one of the last ETOPS limited areas in the world, even at 330min, along with the deep south pacific:

 

the link for the 330 ETOPs 747-8

 

 

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2015-03-18-Boeing-747-8-Intercontinental-Receives-FAA-Approval-for-330-Minute-ETOPS

 

thanks for your answers i hope to see more :wink:

What more do you want?

Further to what Steve Bell has been talking about:

 

DPA - Designated Point All Engines Operating

The position on the fuel flight plan furthest removed from the departure airport to which an aircraft may fly and then divert to a Suitable Airport with all engines operating whilst meeting the Inflight fuel requirements. 

 

This more to do with a redispatch-stlye scenario than it is to do with critical-point calculations.  For example, a LHR-SIN flight may elect KUL (nearby and before SIN along the route) as its suitable airport for diversion from DPA.  The DPA will tell you the last point along the plan you can divert with inflight fuel requirements (see below) satisfied.  This is particularly important for Qantas/Australian operators as they will not plan for diversion/alternate fuel unless required to for weather etc.  

 

The DPA can also be used to reduce variable reserve fuel.  With a DPA, usually 10% of flight fuel up to a maximum figure depending on aircraft type will be carried, but if operationally required, only 10% of flight fuel from DPA to destination can be carried (similar to a redispatch scenario).  Without a DPA, the flight must carry 10% of both flight fuel and diversion fuel.

 

 

 

DPD - Designated Point Depressurised

The most fuel critical point on track from which the same fuel is required to proceed to either of two Acceptable Airports following a depressurisation; at 14,000ft to the limit of oxygen endurance (if applicable) and then at 10,000ft to arrive with the Fixed Fuel Reserve.  Preflight, the fuel must be sufficient to permit depressurised flight to an Acceptable Airport from any point enroute with the Fixed Fuel Reserve and Approach Fuel.

 

Some of QF's 744s were capable of brief descent depressurised to FL210 (allowing them to fly the more direct L888 over the Himalays), before continuing to FL140 for a maximum of 8 hours, then to FL100.

 

 

 

DP1 - Designated Point One Engine Inoperative 

The most fuel critical point on track from which the same fuel is required to proceed to either of two suitable airports.  Preflight, the planned fuel must be sufficient to permit flight to either suitable airport with one engine inoperative, plus 5% of that fuel, plus Approach Fuel, Fixed Fuel Reserve and Special Holding (when required for adverse weather).

 

 

 

DPE/ETOPS diversion fuel - CAO 82.0 Appendix 5, 6 (3)

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2012C00845

 

Civil Aviation Order 82.0 deals with EDTO operations, and expands on the CAAP (advisory procedures that assist in the interpretation of CAOs).

 

It says, you must carry fuel for the worst case of these at the most fuel-critical point along the route:

• Depressurisation
• Depressurisation + simultaneous engine failure
• Engine failre

Arriving at the diversion airport, you are required to have only 15 minutes of holding fuel at 1,500ft, and fuel to conduct an instrument approach and land.

 

According to my info, there is no fixed reserve fuel for ETOPS calculations as it calls them, as this included in the rule (the 15 minutes above).

 

 

Inflight fuel requirements

• Fuel to proceed to a Suitable Airport

• 10% of the above

• Approach Fuel

• Fixed Fuel Reserve

• Special Holding Fuel (when required).

 

 

VFR - Variable Fuel Reserve

10% of Flight Fuel (and Diversion Fuel when required) with a maximum value of:

• A330: 2000kg

• B747: 4000kg

• B737: 1300kg

If there is no DPA, VFR must be 10% of both flight fuel and diversion fuel.

 

 

 

Approach fuel

An amount of fuel determined for each aircraft type to allow for manoeuvring from 1500ft to touchdown.

• A330: 1500kg

• B747: 2000kg

• B737: 300kg 

 

 

Fixed Reserve Fuel

30 minutes holding at 1500'.

 

 

-------------------

I am going to releasing some new fuel policies/aircraft files/flight plan formats that cover all of this info for QF ops on the PFPX forums soon, so keep an eye out.  Will be updating the old ones.  It also has manual covering the basics of QF flight planning/fuel policy.

 

Hope this helps with the fuel calculations a bit,

Cheers,

Rudy

Careful Rudy .... you'll give people nosebleeds  :wink: