Kuragiman

World Traffic 2 - How Not To Go Insane?

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So I picked up World Traffic 2, grabbed all the Bluebell planes, got a registration key and set up my first two airports with random solid flight routes.    Works like a charm except for one thing.  I fear I already know the answer to this but I want to confirm it with anyone else who has had WT2 for a while.     Ground Routing....   this has to be the most tedious thing I've ever encountered in flight simming.   Do you really have to jump through the hoops of a half dozen programs to get good ground routes setup for EACH and EVERY airport one at a time so you can actually see traffic on the ground moving around and not just in the sky?    Say there is an easy way to batch this crap?    Talk about a mega short coming for AI traffic generation if you have to spend hours setting up taxi routes at airports (if they don't already have them) and then edit them again and again because this node is too far off this way and that way and... @_@   Say it ain't so?    I looked at a few of the Groute Route solutions from Recording your own ground route... (let's just do this 50 times over so we can cover all the routes... No thanks...)   Python driven scripts that require a degree in engineering.. etc....

What is the best way to get ground routes setup?

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http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/29936-xgrc/

Ground Route Creator for World Traffic. Run this if an airport doesn't already have built-in ground routes. If the airport does not have an accurate ATC taxi network, you first will need to create/modify it with WED. Or you can browse here for a ground route for your favorite airports:

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/category/159-world-traffic-ground-routes/

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10 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/29936-xgrc/

Ground Route Creator for World Traffic. Run this if an airport doesn't already have built-in ground routes. If the airport does not have an accurate ATC taxi network, you first will need to create/modify it with WED. Or you can browse here for a ground route for your favorite airports:

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/category/159-world-traffic-ground-routes/

As I feared... lot of manual setup on the end-users side.   I guess it is what it is.  This is one of the areas I think X-Plane is weak in... Ai Traffic.  Way to much crap to do to get a single airport up and running decently.  FSX/P3D just reads the AFCAD, looks at the taxi network and directs traffic.  Nothing to it.     

 

I'll try out Xgrc.  Not use to running Python stuff and I think I am missing Python 3.0+.   If it can get some basic ground routes I'll be happy enough.   I did build a ground route map today for MZBZ in Belize but was unable to get the ground routes into WT2.   Lot's of nice traffic AROUND the Houston area though.

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World Traffic 3 (free update) should be out very soon and it will auto generate ground routes.

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9 minutes ago, x-plane 123 said:

World Traffic 3 (free update) should be out very soon and it will auto generate ground routes.

Thank the Lord all mighty.   All this manual setup is way to much for the average user.   I want to fly, not build an entire airport just so I can see some planes around me.

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Okay... Successfully run XRGC at KHOU just for testing.     Two questions now.   1)  I assume if you are going to use WT2 it is a good idea to go into the airport via WED and remove all the static traffic since it looks kind of silly to see planes spawning on top of the static aircraft..    and 2) WT2 isn't player aircraft aware?   A 757 from United Spawned on top of me at my gate.

 

Also, just a little side note.   Be nice if WT3 has the ability to limit how many copies of certain liveries can spawn in like Ultimate Traffic 2 let's you do.  As much as I love Southwest I'd rather not see 3 copies of the same special livery parked at my airport.  lol

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I feel your pain. Bought this a couple of years back and gave up once all my hair fell out and got bum soars from the amount of sitting. Roll on V3

D.

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4 minutes ago, diddy64 said:

I feel your pain. Bought this a couple of years back and gave up once all my hair fell out and got bum soars from the amount of sitting. Roll on V3

D.

Same here - gave it a go for a few weeks, then totally gave up. Even without ground routes it has a few issues that totally break the immersion factor. I am waiting for V3 as well.

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Indeed WT is very powerful but very demanding. I'm doing a revision of my Agre tool to create and edit ground routes but a prerequisite (like WT3 itself) is a working WED layout apt.dat 

The problem as never stressed enough is that freeare designers but also payware ones never invested time doing a decent apt.dat AI traffic layout,with correct one way taxiways, gates assigned to operators, correct width, airport flows...only with XP11 LR seemed to realize that people like lively airports with fancy liveries to look at. 

In FSX you never see an airport released without a good AFCAD, in the XP world a bare apt.dat without ATC lines is the norm so we need time which XP wise means months if not years.

Both WT3 and Xlife will need a good developed apt.dat to work with, the hope is that the more people using these plugins the more ground routes wll be developed but a central repository is needed to share these routes, XLIfe has an automatic download of approuved layouts, WT not yet. 

I feel your pain though, I'm spending hours to build LEBL ground routes in a realistic way, not a task you can do on any airports not already covered, in the end it's a choice of designing or flying. WT roadmap is good with a full revision of ATC for version 4 but being a one man project can take forever. Still if WT3 can sort out the separation bug, as soon as you have some traffic weird effects appear like overlapping landings, takeoffs with runway already engaged, it has good potential with the automatic ground routes and flight plans generation.

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You would have saved yourself time and frustration if you had read up a bit more on this plugin beforehand. There are many topics and reviews that explain these very problems.

I myself am very happy with it. I have it all setup exactly as I want it with ground routes at all airports I fly to and with planes flying the correct liveries for the region I am flying in. WT3 will be a vast improvement I believe so hang in there as there is really not a plugin that can compare once it all is setup correctly. Yes I do know their is one form Jar design but that also has it's shortcomings.

 

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1 hour ago, Glenn_C said:

You would have saved yourself time

Really?   lol... No.  I wouldn't have.   At the end of the day, since airport designers in X-Plane are lazy, I'd still have to do most of the work that is already taken care when doing FSX/P3D airports.   And it's not as easy as slapping down a bunch of taxi routes and going with it.   There appears to be a lot of rules one must follow when making taxi routes or else they won't compile or function properly.

I guess I assumed this kind of micro management would have been taken care of by X-Plane or the 3rd Party dev,  X-Plane is as old as the ESP FSX enine is it not?   I am coming from the P3D platform where stuff like this is pretty much handled already by the AFCAD and 3rd party developers.    I am learning painfully that X-Plane expects all of it's 'pilots' to be programmers and designers too if they want a fully functional, AI littered realistic airport.

Ah well, the bright side is, I want to develop airports for X-Plane now.   So I guess I will be an expert before long having to do all this grunt work.  :laugh:    I have already begun to learn and started transferring my KAMA Rick Husband project from FSX to XP11.

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Someone should build something similar for xplane that I found for Prepar3d.  Its a neat app that pulls in real aircraft data based of their transponder and creates matching AI traffic.  It doesn't need ground routing because the aircraft follow their real world counterparts. The only drawback is occasionally the data isn't accurate, and some airports have the aircraft turn off the transponder during taxi, causing the AI to disappear.  All in all it was pretty cool to join the approach and landing pattern of the real world, even if there were some bugs with ground ops.

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I bought it at launch and haven't used it once, too many hurdles in the beginning. I'm glad V3 is a free update as I'm sure I'm not alone in hardly ever using it since purchase.

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Wait, WT3 regarding realistic traffic will be really good, I'm testing it and generating plausible flight plans for any airport is quite accurate (apart from codeshare problem but it's beta version) is easy. What is less intuitive is to have these flights to move properly on ground since few airports have ground routes, very few well done ground routes, and not many an ATC Wed layout ready for generating routes. But airborn traffic generated is realistic being taken from open flight database. I still prefer my real schedules database imported from FSX schedules but it's a matter of personal taste because I don't see duplicated or wrong liveries and models, but sometimes medium airports are deserted, while with the automatic planning you can have tons of movements.

What WT lacks is widespread availability of ground routes, there are many but not organized, if someone has web skills please post here or in the WT subforum at the org so that we can arrange something automatically downloadable by any user.

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49 minutes ago, Desaix said:

But airborn traffic generated is realistic being taken from open flight database.

Riccardo,

I've read this before about WT3, but I don't understand something about that statement. The Open Flight Database:

http://openflights.org/data.html

is a massive compendium of airline routes (over 60,000 routes and over 500 airlines). All it assures is that one sees the geographically correct AI aircraft liveries either at a specific airport or when flying a specific route. It does not contain any live (real time) data to my knowledge, but I could be wrong about that. I'm pretty sure that the OFD is the source of many of the schedules that have been created for the various flight sims, so this is also suitable for XP.

Jay

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4 hours ago, pegruder said:

Someone should build something similar for xplane that I found for Prepar3d.  Its a neat app that pulls in real aircraft data based of their transponder and creates matching AI traffic.  It doesn't need ground routing because the aircraft follow their real world counterparts. The only drawback is occasionally the data isn't accurate, and some airports have the aircraft turn off the transponder during taxi, causing the AI to disappear.  All in all it was pretty cool to join the approach and landing pattern of the real world, even if there were some bugs with ground ops.

I use that system on P3D you are referring too.   It does indeed make for beautiful traffic... In the Air.  It is terrible at it on the ground, just like WT2.    Many of the airports in the US have planes turn off their X-Ponder after exiting the runway so they vanish.      That seems to the the 5000 lbs. gorilla in the room; ground taxi.    We can get the gates populated.  We can get the skies populated.   All with the click of a button but the traffic coming in and going out to the runways is like pulling nails from a sloth; slow and painful.

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1 hour ago, jabloomf1230 said:

Riccardo,

I've read this before about WT3, but I don't understand something about that statement. The Open Flight Database:

http://openflights.org/data.html

is a massive compendium of airline routes (over 60,000 routes and over 500 airlines). All it assures is that one sees the geographically correct AI aircraft liveries either at a specific airport or when flying a specific route. It does not contain any live (real time) data to my knowledge, but I could be wrong about that. I'm pretty sure that the OFD is the source of many of the schedules that have been created for the various flight sims, so this is also suitable for XP.

Jay

I think it's correct, the result when you generate flight plans in WT3 is that you pretty get correct models and operators (not always of course because due to code share some errors might happen like an heavy AFR leaving EGCC for KATL or a CRJ AA in LEBL) at any airport covered. I'm not a fanatic of liveries when using an auto generator, I just expect a plausible traffic, something that X-Life cannot offer right now with a mix of liveries and models everywhere, at least they told me so.

If you're looking for realistic flights following real schedules then you can use my tool Afre or import in other ways a standard FSX schedule and export it in WT3 format. I will do that for summer 2017 but mainly for European destination unless I can find some reskinners able to work on american and asian liveries. But first I have to see WT3 enhacements on traffic management, it's pretty useless to have hundreds of exact liveries if we can't have correct separation in landing and take offs. And this is not trivial if you think to FSX after 10 years there's still a high chance to get a messy landing with overlapping aircrafts and tons of go arounds unless you use external software like SID&STAR plugin (not exactly easy to deal with).

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Thanks. I already use AFRE which is a great help. As to the FSX/P3d side of things, the free addon AI Controller 2.0 really improves separation and runway selection by AI aircraft and makes them follow  the correct SIDs and STARs.

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I wrote World Traffic so a few comments:

  • Aircraft with unique liveries only spawn a single copy.  There is a identifier in the aircraft definition field that says if the livery is unique or not and if so an unique aircraft only gets spawned once in the X-Plane world.
  • The OpenFlight database used to autogen flights in WT3 does not contain schedule information so I randomly pick times and weight them to normal flight hours to generate plausible traffic flows.  Number of flights per day at an airport is estimated based on the number of routes in the database put can also be specified directly in the Airport Operations file which gets a user interface finally.  That UI also lets you specify which runways are operational depending on time of day and wind conditions, which runways can be used for takeoff and landing and which runways are available for certain aircraft types.  The database contains no info on general aviation traffic so that is added in separately.
  • For other airports with no OpenFlight data, the old Airport Definition files can be used to specify traffic.  This works good for military airfields where you can set percentage of fighter aircraft, transports, trainers, etc.  This data is also used during autogen.
  • When World Traffic was first created, there was no taxiway data available in the X-Plane databases.  I had hoped users would have generated more ground routes but that didn't really happen.  Anyway X-Plane 11 has more detailed taxiway info now and info on gates that lets you pick operators and aircraft types.  World Traffic 3 uses this data and the taxi network to generate ground routes.  There is a Parking Def API that also lets you define the push-back path if you don't like the default and it also lets you pick a specific aircraft for a gate if you want.  You can modify the types and operators from this interface as well and test the ground route.
  • World Traffic 3 lets you use a mix of auto-generated flights and user-defined flights in the case where the user has created really specific flights that they want to use so it mixes the two depending on what data is available.  For the average user, it's much easier to use.  They go to a Flight Planning window, set their aircraft info, departure/arrival airports and click a generate button.  Flight plans are then loaded or generated if need be.  Missing ground routes are generated if they don't already exist and your're good to go.  This should be enough for the average user.  Lots of tuning can be done then with Airport Operations, Airport Definitions for military or small airfields, or modifying the parking defs but that's all optional.

WT3 has been a huge development along with re-done aircraft to fix animations and performance so I think users of it are going to be much happier.  I wish I could work on it full time as it's much more fun work than my real job but it's in test so thanks for your patience.

 

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Cool, thanks for the info and I'm looking forward to the upgrade to V3.

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On 3/1/2017 at 1:34 PM, Kuragiman said:

It does indeed make for beautiful traffic... In the Air.  It is terrible at it on the ground

Yep. I was enthused about this "live traffic" freeware too until I started experiencing the same limitations. Honestly, it is also really impractical to ask the users to go around and edit all the airports so that the airline codes match the gates correctly. The OpenFlight Database approach that WT3 is using is a far less intrusive option for the average sim user. Further, the  live traffic app does not coexist with any other AI traffic so one not only doesn't see parked aircraft but also the vast majority of VFR aircraft either. But what can one expect for free?

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On Wednesday, March 01, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Kuragiman said:

Really?   lol... No.  I wouldn't have.   At the end of the day, since airport designers in X-Plane are lazy, I'd still have to do most of the work that is already taken care when doing FSX/P3D airports.   And it's not as easy as slapping down a bunch of taxi routes and going with it.   There appears to be a lot of rules one must follow when making taxi routes or else they won't compile or function properly.

I guess I assumed this kind of micro management would have been taken care of by X-Plane or the 3rd Party dev,  X-Plane is as old as the ESP FSX enine is it not?   I am coming from the P3D platform where stuff like this is pretty much handled already by the AFCAD and 3rd party developers.    I am learning painfully that X-Plane expects all of it's 'pilots' to be programmers and designers too if they want a fully functional, AI littered realistic airport.

Ah well, the bright side is, I want to develop airports for X-Plane now.   So I guess I will be an expert before long having to do all this grunt work.  :laugh:    I have already begun to learn and started transferring my KAMA Rick Husband project from FSX to XP11.

P3d = windows and XP = linux 😎

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32 minutes ago, sparkie66 said:

P3d = windows and XP = linux 😎

Mah...I have XP in windows and happy I am. Why should I need to install Linux which scores the incredible percentage of 4% of XP users.

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7 hours ago, classicjetsims said:

I wrote World Traffic so a few comments:

  • Aircraft with unique liveries only spawn a single copy.  There is a identifier in the aircraft definition field that says if the livery is unique or not and if so an unique aircraft only gets spawned once in the X-Plane world.
  • The OpenFlight database used to autogen flights in WT3 does not contain schedule information so I randomly pick times and weight them to normal flight hours to generate plausible traffic flows.  Number of flights per day at an airport is estimated based on the number of routes in the database put can also be specified directly in the Airport Operations file which gets a user interface finally.  That UI also lets you specify which runways are operational depending on time of day and wind conditions, which runways can be used for takeoff and landing and which runways are available for certain aircraft types.  The database contains no info on general aviation traffic so that is added in separately.
  • For other airports with no OpenFlight data, the old Airport Definition files can be used to specify traffic.  This works good for military airfields where you can set percentage of fighter aircraft, transports, trainers, etc.  This data is also used during autogen.
  • When World Traffic was first created, there was no taxiway data available in the X-Plane databases.  I had hoped users would have generated more ground routes but that didn't really happen.  Anyway X-Plane 11 has more detailed taxiway info now and info on gates that lets you pick operators and aircraft types.  World Traffic 3 uses this data and the taxi network to generate ground routes.  There is a Parking Def API that also lets you define the push-back path if you don't like the default and it also lets you pick a specific aircraft for a gate if you want.  You can modify the types and operators from this interface as well and test the ground route.
  • World Traffic 3 lets you use a mix of auto-generated flights and user-defined flights in the case where the user has created really specific flights that they want to use so it mixes the two depending on what data is available.  For the average user, it's much easier to use.  They go to a Flight Planning window, set their aircraft info, departure/arrival airports and click a generate button.  Flight plans are then loaded or generated if need be.  Missing ground routes are generated if they don't already exist and your're good to go.  This should be enough for the average user.  Lots of tuning can be done then with Airport Operations, Airport Definitions for military or small airfields, or modifying the parking defs but that's all optional.

WT3 has been a huge development along with re-done aircraft to fix animations and performance so I think users of it are going to be much happier.  I wish I could work on it full time as it's much more fun work than my real job but it's in test so thanks for your patience.

 

 

Great info.   That sounds much much better.   I don't need exact flight schedules.. I just need my airports filled and the skies a little busy at the click of the button.   I'm not demanding anything... lol.     I look forward to this upgrade.

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