The Change to 64 Bit - What Exactly Happens?

[JamesIceland 14]

10 hours ago, SimonC said:

Haha, I think I remember this post from the time P3Dv1 was released... then v2, then v3...

It happens in every post about a potential new simulator and is also not anything to do with what I was asking in my original post.

As a gentle reminder, I was keen to hear from people who have thoughts on what add-on developers will need to do to get things working in a 64 bit environment. This is purely a curiosity question as I'm interested in the technical ins and outs more than anything. It may also give people a rough idea of how hard/easy it is therefore negating the need to worry about having to wait for a new stable sim.

Either way, would be good to stay back on topic. 

[sultanofswing 57]

32 more bits get added.

[deanwings 2]

6 hours ago, JamesHongKong said:

..As a gentle reminder, I was keen to hear from people who have thoughts on what add-on developers will need to do to get things working in a 64 bit environment.

 

 

 

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

On 3/11/2017 at 3:23 PM, MarkW said:

.....that wooshing sound you will hear is 100,000 people simultaneously moving all sliders to the right.  This will be followed by 2 years of moaning and groaning about low frame rates.

...and having to buy more physical memory and disk because scenery uses what they have up.

[JamesIceland 14]

10 minutes ago, Gregg_Seipp said:

...and having to buy more physical memory and disk because scenery uses what they have up.

Respectfully, this isn't what this post was about - again, a polite request that it stays on topic?

[Lorby_SI 2,038]

Re: performance gains

If a C++ application is recompiled "as-is" to 64bit, there is no performance gain. In my experience rather the opposite, the app is performing a tiny bit worse than in 32 bit. For framework based apps, written in languages like Java or C#, 32/64 bit doesn't matter much anyway. Here is an article about a completely different type of application, which has quite high demands for performance and a plugin/addon architecture too, and that is offered in both 32 and 64 bit  - and what the manufacturer has to say about that: https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209773785-64-bit-vs-32-bit-FAQ

For the record: the managed SimConnect library has alwas had 64bit formats for the simulator variable values. Progressing through the P3D releases there were quite a few unexpected changes in SimConnect. A few of those cause  exceptions in programmatic addons even today, and clients that have not been adapted to P3D will cause hard-to-detect issues. You may not notice these right away, but you shouldn't be surprised about micro stutters or hold ups either. And this is the situation today, with a simulator that still is largely compatible.

And if LM decide to recode the app to gain performance, if at all possible, we are in the situation that I wrote about earlier - we simply do not know what will be changed and how, and if any 3rd party content or addon will work (at all or at least correctly) after that. A few months ago there was outrage because a point release of P3D caused texture flickering and issues with older scenery. LM was quick to remedy this - but this also shows the reluctance of both LM and the customers to embrace change.

Best regards

[JamesIceland 14]

16 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

Re: performance gains

If a C++ application is recompiled "as-is" to 64bit, there is no performance gain. In my experience rather the opposite, the app is performing a tiny bit worse than in 32 bit. For framework based apps, written in languages like Java or C#, 32/64 bit doesn't matter much anyway. Here is an article about a completely different type of application, which has quite high demands for performance and a plugin/addon architecture too, and that is offered in both 32 and 64 bit  - and what the manufacturer has to say about that: https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209773785-64-bit-vs-32-bit-FAQ

For the record: the managed SimConnect library has alwas had 64bit formats for the simulator variable values. Progressing through the P3D releases there were quite a few unexpected changes in SimConnect. A few of those cause  exceptions in programmatic addons even today, and clients that have not been adapted to P3D will cause hard-to-detect issues. You may not notice these right away, but you shouldn't be surprised about micro stutters or hold ups either. And this is the situation today, with a simulator that still is largely compatible.

And if LM decide to recode the app to gain performance, if at all possible, we are in the situation that I wrote about earlier - we simply do not know what will be changed and how, and if any 3rd party content or addon will work (at all or at least correctly) after that. A few months ago there was outrage because a point release of P3D caused texture flickering and issues with older scenery. LM was quick to remedy this - but this also shows the reluctance of both LM and the customers to embrace change.

Best regards

Really interesting insight, thank you. It will be very interesting indeed when/if v4 is released as 64 bit to see which add-ons work and which don't. LM seem to have closer partnerships with the add-on developers than they had in the past (I am going from the many featured on their P3D website and the knowledge that they have worked with developers during previous iterations, particularly through v3) - whether that means a smooth roll-out of a new 64 bit sim and a strong raft of working add-ons is yet to be seen. If there is greater access being given to the add-on developers then I'm sure they will have a clear understanding of what needs to be done to each of their individual add-ons to ensure compatibility.

[pmb 5,137]

20 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

Re: performance gains

If a C++ application is recompiled "as-is" to 64bit, there is no performance gain. In my experience rather the opposite, the app is performing a tiny bit worse than in 32 bit. For framework based apps, written in languages like

I can confirm this. I once had a rather dated Core Duo laptop (not for the sim, but as a networked client for addons etc.) running Win 7/32. When I found it time to upgrade my main machine to Win 7/64 I thought it would be a clever idea to upgrade the laptop, too. Basically, I installed the same programs after upgrading. 

The result was, the laptop did work as such under Win 7/64, however, it all got a little more sluggish. Not much to the point of being unusable, but just enough to be noted, notably in case of more demanding apps like moving maps.

Kind regards, Michael

 

[wizzards 99]

I suppose that what exactly happens is the same as when FSX was released,we all realize that a lot of our PC,s are not really capable of making the best of it

Peter

[ErichB 3,643]

1 hour ago, wizzards said:

I suppose that what exactly happens is the same as when FSX was released,we all realize that a lot of our PC,s are not really capable of making the best of it

Peter

You are comparing apples and oranges.  The original FSX release was a buggy, awful mess - and even though we grew to love it, it was never really 'fixed' until LM took it over.  If our PC's are up to the job in XP, there should be no difference here.

[kakusso 12]

The detail in far away textures will no longuer need to be reduced to save VAS, P3D v3 does this automatically. The result is better immersion.

[vcarlo 529]

1 hour ago, tooting said:

it still isnt fixed, its been pimped a bit but not fixed.  I can just imagine the new names companies are going to call stuff to make some sales,.  

Ill say activesky AIR or Life, then youll have FSGLOBAL Peaks and then your have FSL Blueprint and PMDG Organic , I bet Mr Stien and Mr Cohen their bank managers are looking forward to the release more than the simmers.

 

yeah, I know... it's so UNFAIR how these developers expect us simmers to have to pay them for their time to upgrade our enjoyment to a 64 bit simulator

[kakusso 12]

Microsoft made Windows 10 free for Windows 7 and 8 users to have a more consistent ecosystem. LM could do the same with V4 for the same reason.

[fluffyflops 1,858]

1 hour ago, kakusso said:

Microsoft made Windows 10 free for Windows 7 and 8 users to have a more consistent ecosystem. LM could do the same with V4 for the same reason.

No chance in a million. welcome to capitalism.  Can you imagine the likes of pmdg and fsl not being able to make more money.  Never ever for one minute think any company thinks of its customers before profit. 

[vgbaron 3,627]

Let's not go down this path again folks or we will have a fast shutdown of this thread.

 

Vic