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Guest dpc

Perspective - MSFS vs. Real World

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Taking my first GA flight/lesson in years the other day, one thing I noticed when on final was the runway did not appear as "long" and narrow as it does at MSFS's default zoom of 1.0 On approach, this view pretty much approximated what my eye saw:http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0541695/L/Unless I zoom MSFS to somewhere between 1.25 and 1.50, it seems very difficult to duplicate this perspective and depth of field. I guess my question is, what zoom level do most experienced pilots feel best provides "real" depth of field in MSFS. It seems the default zoom is great for peripheral vision and awareness, but less so for seeing perspective from the point of view it should be seen from during approach. I know some pilots use zoom values of less than one, but that seems to make the "long and narrow" impression all the more pronounced. -John

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Hi JohnI know where you are coming from. It seems to me that we are really trying to do the impossible on a small monitor. I fly VC , mostly with a zoom of 75%. The problem with a large zoom ratio is that while it gives a better "directly out the front of the window" picture, you can't see the gauges in the VC and don't have anything like a realistic field of view. I fly VC mostly at 75%. With this zoom ratio , I can see most of the gauges that I need to fly with and I get a reasonably wide field of view. Trouble is that this largely destroys my perceptions of "depth" . I have been experimenting recently with quick zooms to a larger ratio - only on really close final. Barry

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Guest JIMJAM

I just bought a 32 inch LCD which solved that problem.Although you could get alot of flying lessons for what it cost...

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Tks Barry....I guess that's one reason why some still stick with 2-d cockpit views. One huge enhancement for any sim would be some means of giving us the wide angle view we need for scanning the cockpit, while preserving depth of field for outside the cockpit. But I suspect this would require two separate 3-d algorithms--one to track the space inside the aircraft, and another for the space outside the aircraft.-John

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Guest grot

THere's really no way to capture the amount of information peripheral vision and the huge FOV the human eye generates. THe closest thing in my mind is this:For "in the cockpit" I use between 50 and 75 percent (all this is in active camera). I use pretty tight zooms in the vc to the T-group, engine controlls, and the radio (one set each) to play with instruments. At 50-75, you can see the insturments well enough to eyeball airspeed, vsi, alt and at - which is how you really fly VFR - eyes in the sky, "awareness" of the gauges.When I need to be looking around: finding airports, traffic, etc, I actually pop out of VC and into 2D, but without gauges. No matter what zoom you use in VC, nothing shows you the front 180 degrees of view you get from the real thing.

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Guest dogknot

John, The scenario you presented is another of the many reasons I like and use the Flight1 View Module (f1view.zip).******* It's freeware.F1View does require a mouse wheel.It is a simple dll installed to the Modules folder (F1_view.dll) so is easily installed/removed if desired.*******Back to the scenario (sorry)... from the VC the outside zoom view can be set as desired in the usual FS9 way or with the mouse/key combinations provided with F1View, i.e. zoom 1.25, then a simple backward roll of the mouse wheel moves the pilot/viewpoint back in the cockpit without effecting the zoom. You now have the desired zoom/perspective and can see the critical panel gauges. With the yokes tophat you can adjust up and down as necessary to scan the panel or F1View provides the same by holding down the mousewheel while dragging the mouse forward or backward. Need to sit a little higher in the seat?: Shift+roll the mousewheel = viewpoint raises/lowersCtrl+roll mouse wheel = move left/right in the cockpitAnyway, there are a few other features like moving around the VC and cabin, walkarounds etc. No headbobs or clickity-clack feet sounds, but a really handy module for the freeware minded simmer.

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Yes - F1view is very good -- but I use a joystick and this means my right hand is already occupied controlling the a/c. Maybe I should buy a yoke - but here in Australia, they are just too expensive to justify.Barry

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Guest dogknot

Understood. I usually set up the aircraft, my seating and view preferences before departure (such as zoom 1.0). Then the only yoke/joystick maneuvering, besides flying, is operating the hat view for scanning the skies and gauges. I don't need to play with the mouse at all under these circumstances. (perhaps your joystick doesn't have a hat or it may be programmed to something different than scan view?)Anyway, the F1View was just a suggestion and/or possibility.Happy Flying! :-wave

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Hi, Barry and everyone.If your Twist on the Stick is not used, assign it to Left/Right Pan view. Search for "Avcomware" for more info on VC ideas. TV

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Which is better F1 or Active Camera? I have used active camera since it came out and really rely on it.Eric

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>Taking my first GA flight/lesson in years the other day, one>thing I noticed when on final was the runway did not appear as>"long" and narrow as it does at MSFS's default zoom of 1.0 On>approach, this view pretty much approximated what my eye saw:>>http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0541695/L/Hi John!Here's a post on the subject:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchMarco

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Guest dpc

Quick fix there is to fly left-handed. From the left seat in most GA or heavies, you would be doing that anyway. -dave

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With Active Camera, you do exactly what you say.with the down arrow key on the numpad, you can push back in VC and see more guages. Thats zooms out the VC but it does not zoom out the external view.In addition Active Camera gives you head latency in VC mode. I can't live without that anymoreManny

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I always use the 2D panel at .70-.75 as that seems to give me the best "sight picture" of the RW peripheral view. But the problem is, as you've correctly stated, that the straight-out-the-windscreen view at that setting is too long and skinny. I like something around 1.4 to get that view right - but then, to me, the periphiral view's all wrong. It seems to me that the 1.0 default view is somewhat of a compromise between the two. It would be great if we had a key command programmable onto the joystick/yoke that would allow for a fast switch between the two. I never thought of that before. Maybe we should suggest it to the FS team.Doug

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Usually the issue I run into (I have the F1 utility) is although I can push back in the VC, sooner or later I push back into the pilot seat and it then blocks my forward view. -John

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Guest william273

hi john, any possibility the runways are different lengths? just wanted to throw that in. i've been using the VC for a few weeks now and am not a real pilot so can't give a real perspective but to the other posts as for not seeing enough, you can only see what you're looking at. if you're looking at the instruments then you're not gonna see much else. if you're looking at the runway then you're not gonna see the instruments. you have to move your eyes/head. i'm sure i must be missing the point. i know in the books they talk about how the runway appears to look different if you're coming in to low or to high, can't remember which is which though. any possibility that the pilot in that photo may have been off the slope a bit? could be you guys are way ahead of me and probably are. gotta remember we're using a monitor and this is not REAL. william

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If my (virtual) flying career depended on me doing anything with my left hand, then I would be looking for a (virtual) train drivers job. I am one of these people who is so right handed , that it is almost like my right hand doesn't exist.Barry

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Hi John,I hope you enjoy your future flight training! I'd be interested in whether you landed the aircraft (assisted) and if so, how did it go?When sitting in front of a monitor, your eyes are focused on the surface of the monitor- regardless of how much depth the image on the monitor may appear to have. Compare that with what is virtually an infinity focus (usually half way down the runway on landing, so for a 9,000' strip that's not far short of a mile- but maybe a half mile is more average- but still much more than several feet). Unfortunately, in visual flight, that sight view means everything in how you fly the plane, especially when landing and taking off. I have never played around with the zoom settings so am unable to offer any advice. However, the good news is that as you gain more experience, that you will mentally segregate the sim and real flight so that one doesn't influence the other- and once you are able to resolve that apparent conflict then it doesn't matter that the sim looks incorrect.Rightly or wrongly (I can't comment), I have heard CFI's tell students that until they can resolve that difference that they shouldn't be using a simulation. I have always used both and never had a problem so maybe it's specific to some people. Of course, those that have never seen the real perspective in landing a plane most likely believe that what they see on their computer monitors is real and don't know any different- so it's all relative I guess. :)Conversely- when flying instruments, your eyes in the real plane are focused at about the same distance as your monitor is from you- which I believe helps in making any sim a great tool for IFR training. This brings to mind one of the more difficult things in learning to fly instruments (is there anything not difficult ? :) )- flying to minimums with the view limiting device, which for an ILS can be 200' above the runway- then removing them. The eyes instantaneously go from a 1 foot focal point to infinity, and until your mind can resolve that happening it creates a huge sense of overwhelming- and makes landings almost impossible (it did for me until I could resolve it). You won't see that issue on a monitor- but it is related to your question.Good luck with your flying,Bruce.

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Usually .75 zoom, and with a VC for smaller aircraft. Well at least VC's for airplanes such as RealAirs SF260 & Spitfire, since that's all they come with anyway. And a combo of VC and 2D for aircraft such as Dreamfleets Beech Baron, in which the 2D is preferable for using the GPS and a few other gauges.L.Adamson

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Thanks, BruceFor my first lesson, I was allowed to taxi the Allegro, take off, climb to cruise altitude, and essentially fly it all the way to the turn to final. Due to crosswinds and some light chop, the CFI took the helm for the last half mile of final. One thing I found, as other simmers have warned, is that I looked too much at the instruments and not nearly enough outside during the flight. The CFI, who uses FS2002, also noted that's common and says his solution, should it come to that, will be covering the instruments :)That, and I held a "death grip" on the stick. The CFI didn't seem phased about it since he knew I was aware of the issue, but I found myself wondering after the flight how much an experienced pilot lets a plane "dance" when flying and how much effort they put into keeping the wings level. The CFI explained that he gives little input and lets the aircraft ride through the chop, but that's disconcerting when I am used to a sim horizon being mostly straight and level. Still, I somehow managed to steer the aircraft away from Falcon Field, keep clear of all the traffic in the area, circle around the practice area many times, and get us most of the way back home so I had the stick for about 45 minutes. Whether that's good or bad for my first real lesson, you tell me. My previous cockpit experience was with two friends 20 years back, both CFI's, who said "you have the aircraft" and proceeded to let me fly it in a rather sttaight line, for a brief time. Those flights were in a Cessna 170 and 172, and both aircraft seemed a bit less touchy about my "Death Grip".Due to an expo next week, the Allegro is booked. I next go out on the 25th, weather permitting (and in Arizona it's "always sunny, all the time").-John

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Hi John,I know exactly what you are talking about and has been part of my criticism for all computer monitor based simulators when it comes to learning bad habits in the landing phase. Your real world experience will help overcome some of this because your brain now knows what it should be looking for. I am generally using no less than 1.00 for zoom setting but with the addition of TrackIR4 feel I am able to get a pretty realistic sensation to short final and flare with the right aircraft....now if I could just get that Falcon finished up ;)

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>I am generally>using no less than 1.00 for zoom setting but with the addition>of TrackIR4 feel I am able to get a pretty realistic sensation>to short final and flare with the right aircraft.I settled on .75 very scientifically! :D When this question came up last year, I went out to the RV6, which is side by side seating, sliding canopy, and close to the RealAir SF260 in width. At .75 zoom, I'm seeing just about as much of SF260 panel, as I do sitting in the RV and not moving my eyes. When switching to 1.00 , it's as though I moved my head nearly a foot forward into the windscreen, which severly limits what I see on the panel, and creates a sense of tunnel vision. RealAir defaults the Spit and SF260 to .75 for the same reasons.It's all a compromise, since we're still limited on perhipheral vision, but I prefer my panels to somewhat match, whether real life, or in the sim.L.Adamson

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I knew Larry would do this very scientifically ;). Prior to getting the TrackIR unit I settled into .75 to .81 for most aircraft. Now if I could just talk my wife into one more video card and three side by side 20" monitors, then I'd have that peripheral vision conquered.

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Hi John,I loved to read about your flight, and can recall like it was yesterday (1991 in fact) that I first flew with my first CFI in the SFO Bay Area. I too held that death grip :)Here's the deal. You have to let the airplane talk to you. You most likely think I'm crazy, but it does, and all you have to know how to do is listen to it. But if you have the death grip, then you strangle that comminication with the plane. It's whispering to you all the time, and needs just a gentle touch like you are holding a baby to be able to have you hear it. In actual fact, when I fly the plane becomes an extension of me, just like they were my wings. Planes really are living things, and when you are able to discover that by yourslelf, the you can truly say that you have flown!Good luck, please keep us all informed on your progress. And please feel free anytime to e-mail me (or PM) with any flying questions. I don't care if you can pull up the PMDG B744 and handle emergencies and everything there is to know about that complex plane in FS; flying a real C172 will be over-whelming for a while. That's why you had the death grip- and I'll bet that your area of perception focused into a small ring in front of you- all part of the body's way to deal with situations that are overwhelming. It will pass, and then you can start listening for that gentle whispering! :)Bruce.brucek@qwest.net

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