pegruder

Dynamic Lighting Performance & 4.1

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Has the DL performance degraded in the new version?  I fired up the NGX at the gate (Gate E4) at night and I'm in the ballpark of 3-8Fps.  I've never seen less than 25-30fps on the same settings on 4.0.  I'm running AA on 4xMSAA, 4K textures and Anisotropic at 16x.  I've seen a handful of other posts saying it wasn't fixed, but it sure seems worse to me unless I have my settings messed up somehow.

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with a 4.9 CPU and 1080 something is SERIOUSLY messed up I would say!

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I have a feeling it did degrade. JustSim Nice at night is impossible (12-15 fps). During daytime, easy 35-45. I don't remember being that bad in 4.0. 

i7 7700K @ 4.8Ghz

Gtx 1080 Strix

16 GB DDR4

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Both of you using SSAA or DSR?

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Just noticed something even weirder, if I start taxxing around the airport, frame rates clear up - even if I go back to the same gate I started at.  The DL looks awful now though as it seems to keep "drawing" itself in and out.

Just now, simbol said:

Both of you using SSAA or DSR?

What's DSR?  I haven't touched anything in the Nvidia control panel.  The only settings I'm running is MSAAx4 with 4k textures and 16x Anisotropic.  FXAA is off.

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2 minutes ago, pegruder said:

Just noticed something even weirder, if I start taxxing around the airport, frame rates clear up - even if I go back to the same gate I started at.  The DL looks awful now though as it seems to keep "drawing" itself in and out.

What's DSR?  I haven't touched anything in the Nvidia control panel.  The only settings I'm running is MSAAx4 with 4k textures and 16x Anisotropic.  FXAA is off.

Nvidia Dynamic Super Resolution, SSAA and DSR are killers with DL enabled.

Check if you have this enablesd on your Nvidia Inspector.

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3587/~/how-to-enable-dynamic-super-resolution-in-games.

Regards 

Simbol 

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4 minutes ago, simbol said:

Nvidia Dynamic Super Resolution, SSAA and DSR are killers with DL enabled.

Check if you have this enablesd on your Nvidia Inspector.

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3587/~/how-to-enable-dynamic-super-resolution-in-games.

Regards 

Simbol 

Thanks for the tip - looks like I have it off, side note, I didn't notice I wasn't logged in to that nvidia experience panel, so I wasn't being notified my drivers needed updating.  I'm still on the 7/23 384.94 driver.  I'm gonna give an update a go and see if theres a difference.

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44 minutes ago, pegruder said:

Has the DL performance degraded in the new version?  I fired up the NGX at the gate (Gate E4) at night and I'm in the ballpark of 3-8Fps.  I've never seen less than 25-30fps on the same settings on 4.0.  I'm running AA on 4xMSAA, 4K textures and Anisotropic at 16x.  I've seen a handful of other posts saying it wasn't fixed, but it sure seems worse to me unless I have my settings messed up somehow.

When you first start up the sim and have this issue, pan around all the way to the left and right.  This clears up the issue with DL.  I just did a flight out of KSFO just before dawn in the NGX and had 40fps at takeoff (all landing, wing, taxi lights on).

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24 minutes ago, Flic1 said:

When you first start up the sim and have this issue, pan around all the way to the left and right.  This clears up the issue with DL.  I just did a flight out of KSFO just before dawn in the NGX and had 40fps at takeoff (all landing, wing, taxi lights on).

This is a good advise, when I load the NGX I always switch to spot view and move my view all around the aircraft, this for some reason increase my FPS and leave the simulator in a much better performance state.

I don't understand why thought.. I try to think it is "Magic" lol

Regard,
Simbol

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Feels worse to me. Before 4.1 I could get around 20 fps at UK2000 Stansted. Now it's a slideshow initially then it sorts itself out but then I got micro stutters.

To be honest this update had proved nothing short of a ball ache!

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I've given up on trying SSAA with DL.  Guess I have to suck up MSAA anti aliasing with jagged edges to have DL flyable.

 

(I, too, run at 4.8 GHz and a 1080 Strix)

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42 minutes ago, Flic1 said:

When you first start up the sim and have this issue, pan around all the way to the left and right.  This clears up the issue with DL.  I just did a flight out of KSFO just before dawn in the NGX and had 40fps at takeoff (all landing, wing, taxi lights on).

I have the same odd issue, at startup very low fps and GPU usage at 100%, pan around for a good 2-4 mins and eventually the fps shoot up to the normal range. Basically with aerosoft EGLL Pro and PMDG NGX I can depart in the night at 40fps and only ~60% GPU usage

I am using a 7700k @ 5Ghz, ASUS Strix GTX 980 and 1080p monitor with MSAA x4 (thought some airports I can do 2x SSAA)

Me thinks its a bug or poorly optimized code. Isn't there a way to disable AA on DL? Make it the last object rendered or something

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I have this issue as well, but it isn't unique to 4.1. I'm still on 4.0 and it behaves the same.

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35 minutes ago, slait said:

I have this issue as well, but it isn't unique to 4.1. I'm still on 4.0 and it behaves the same.

Strange - only started on 4.1 for me.  Drivers did nothing as I suspected.  Hopefully theyll have it sorted out soon.  In the meantime Ill try panning around a bit first.  I wanted to stop messing with the sim and actually get some flying in so I fired up a day trip in the new FI VR for 4.x.  Pretty damn fanatastic!

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Running 4xmsaa and dl on 

My 2 titans sc 6gb first edition cards

Are getting smashed 

What a  waste of money 

It should work fine atleast with 4msaa

 

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11 minutes ago, mikeymike said:

Running 4xmsaa and dl on 

My 2 titans sc 6gb first edition cards

Are getting smashed 

What a  waste of money 

It should work fine atleast with 4msaa

 

Does the fps not improve after giving it 2-3 mins and panning around for a while?

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22 minutes ago, Zinnertek said:

Does the fps not improve after giving it 2-3 mins and panning around for a while?

Havnt tested yet.

Interesting thou.

I dont get much time on sim ,due to work and fam.

Will test tomorrow

 

 

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First Thing:  Dynamic Lighting has not been "fixed" in P3Dv4.1.  Anybody who thinks it has hasn't read the release notes for the upgrade.  LM even said (in other venues) it wasn't addressed in the v4.1 update.

Second Thing:  If you don't understand why panning around your aircraft "works" to reduce INITIAL stutters, etc, you are probably a relatively new flight sim user and/or don't understand how "scenery" and "graphics" get loaded into your simulator for display.  Panning around your aircraft after initial loading of the sim has been a valid recommendation for a LONG time, well before anything to do with Dynamic Lighting.  It is one of the FIRST things you should do after loading the sim to help determine if you are over-taxing your hardware capabilities with slider settings that are too high (autogen density, radius, AI Traffic, texture resolutions like 4096, etc) and things like anti-aliasing value settings, etc .  Just because your aircraft loaded at it's location does NOT mean that all the scenery around it you COULD see if you were looking in a given direction has been loaded into your memory yet (ie - is READY to be displayed by your CPU or GPU).  By going to Spot View and "spinning the view around", you THEN force your computer to "make room" for all the pretty "stuff" you want to see in a DIFFERENT VIEW from your aircraft.  Depending on your computer's hardware capabilities, it will probably have to UNLOAD some stuff from memory (scenery stuff farther away from your aircraft after it's initial loading), THEN it can load all those 4096 addon airport buildings you added to the sim.  How do you know if your computer can handle your current settings?  If after spinning around your aircraft about 5 times maximum, if you CAN'T keep spinning WITHOUT stutters or pauses, you need to turn stuff down or off, because you are asking your computer to do things it simply can't keep up with doing.  Dynamic Lighting (especially with a complex aircraft like a PMDG at a complex airport with too much AI) just adds to the workload. 

The SAME THING is what causes stuttering, frame pauses and freezes, etc when you are flying and switching views too often.  Your computer will have to (in many cases) UNload stuff from memory to LOAD NEW stuff into memory to display it.  Going back and forth from Cockpit View to Spot View to Tower View to (insert view here) will constantly force your computer to unload/reload "scenery" into memory (note I'm not only talking about your main RAM, but also the "processing memory" of a GPU).  This is what contributed to Out Of Memory errors in earlier 32-bit sim versions that could only use 4GB of system RAM memory.  But it STILL exists in 64-bit sims too.  Even though you won't get an OOM in a 64-bit sim, your hardware still has to be able to GET and DISPLAY new scenery from memory in a TIMELY manner (like what the GPU has to get and process in IT'S OWN memory after getting it from the system's RAM memory), or else you will STILL get stutters, frame pauses and freezes, and low FPS (FPS being only a benchmark number and totally misunderstood by most flight sim users placing way to much importance on it).

So, if you load your sim, then go to Spot View and "spin around" until all stutters/pauses stop, THEN go back to Cockpit view and start moving the aircraft, THEN the stutters/pauses start again and FPS go down the crapper, you are STILL asking the computer to do more than it can keep up with.  It's your "slider settings" in most cases then.  You are simply going to have to upgrade your hardware or turn down some of the "eye candy" stuff.  And in some (many?) cases...even if you already HAVE the latest and greatest hardware...learn how OTHER things running on your computer can "hose" your flight sim from running OK (is your antivirus program checking EVERY FILE in your flight sim in "real time" when your flight sim is running?  Have you EXCLUDED your flight sim folder(s)...and other addon folders for programs like weather, AI Traffic, whatever your sim also uses...from "real time" virus scanning, etc?). :biggrin:

EDIT:  To be sure, there is absolutely NO REASON you should have to pan around your airplane in Spot View for 2 - 3 MINUTES to get things to work correctly.  FIVE SPINS around the aircraft MAXIMUM should load EVERYTHING in the entire 360-degree view you could spin through.  If it takes MINUTES of spinning, you have a much different problem with your sim and/or computer.  And in the case of this thread, it is STILL most likely related to the use of the Dynamic Lighting that doesn't work correctly yet (with other than default aircraft LM included in the sim, AND possibly addon airports that aren't "playing nice" with Dynamic Lighting yet either).

My apologies for the length of my post, but some of the "solutions" presented in this thread are ludicrous.

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Looks like if you just do a 360 degree pan the low FPS goes away with DL on.  Very strange as I've never had to do that in I can't recall how many years of simming....Im back to 30fps at night.  What doesn't make sense to me with this 360 degree business, is if I load in and sit there, there shouldn't be any loading or unloading  of scenery to happen. If only whats in my general direction loaded I can't see that being taxing to the system, especially if I've never had the issue before.  Either way, a quick spin around did the trick for me for whatever reason.  Multiple spins seems a little nutty to me but hey whatever works.  At least for me, picking up the rift headset and spinning once set my sim back to normal and haven't had any other issues.

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Does it STAY at 30 FPS when you go back to the Cockpit View?  When you start taxiing the aircraft and the view out the cockpit window starts changing?  When you are flying?  If you switch views BACK to Spot View and start spinning around the aircraft again? 

If no, you haven't solved whatever the REAL problem is yet.

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52 minutes ago, FalconAF said:

Does it STAY at 30 FPS when you go back to the Cockpit View?  When you start taxiing the aircraft and the view out the cockpit window starts changing?  When you are flying?  If you switch views BACK to Spot View and start spinning around the aircraft again? 

If no, you haven't solved whatever the REAL problem is yet.

For me, one spin around and I'm good to go.  I flew 2 legs and haven't dipped below 25fps.

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6 hours ago, FalconAF said:

Second Thing:  If you don't understand why panning around your aircraft "works" to reduce INITIAL stutters, etc, you are probably a relatively new flight sim user and/or don't understand how "scenery" and "graphics" get loaded into your simulator for display. 

To be fare to OP, I've been simming since the subLOGIC days, and this is literally the first time I've heard of the spot-view-and-spin theory. I don't think it's SOP for standard P3D use!

I'm interested that it seems to work well for some people here with the DL, there's clearly a group of simmers with substantial performance issues in this regard.

I'm currently very performance orientated (VR simming), so I was actually testing the frames with dynamic lighting last night with the PMDG QOTS II. I can see no - zero - frame rate impact with all the lights on, and landing lights illuminating ground selected (achieving 80 FPS with the PMDG bird in this setting, obviously though with some sacrifices in the slider department!)

My suggestions are:

- leave nVIDIA settings in default, don't try to apply AA other other processing outside of P3D.

- use latest graphics drivers.

- buy a ninja graphics card if you can. It was painful, but I bit the bullet and bought a 1080Ti. Whilst I've rarely gone top-end with this rapidly-changing technology over the years, our new sims can push even this cutting-edge hardware to its limits.

- be aware of what your dynamic lights are shining on. I'm not using payware airports, I believe some can cause performance drop when DL is used. I fly with home-made airports that allow me to balance visuals with performance.

- further testing of the spot view-and-spin methodology is recommended. I'd be interested in LM's take on this - does it consistently improve early performance, and if so, how can the program be optimised so that this rather cumbersome approach is not necessary? As noted though, I've never done this and am generally very happy with my sim performance, including during my current flying with VR+dynamic lighting+PMDG aircraft.

Cheers,

Rob

 

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7 hours ago, FalconAF said:

Panning around your aircraft after initial loading of the sim has been a valid recommendation for a LONG time, well before anything to do with Dynamic Lighting.   

 

I agree. This is one of the first things I learned back in 2009 when I went from FS9 to FSX and was working with Michael Greenblatt at FS-GS on my FSX rig and setup. Still holds true today.

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20 minutes ago, cmpbellsjc said:

I agree. This is one of the first things I learned back in 2009 when I went from FS9 to FSX and was working with Michael Greenblatt at FS-GS on my FSX rig and setup. Still holds true today.

I don't know how many thousands of flights I've done since FSX came out in 2006, but I would say that I've never even left the cockpit view in at least 95% of them!

I've learned today that some people routinely adopt a pre-flight "spot view spin approach", but is there any evidence that this actually helps in P3D v4? I've never heard LM mention anything of the sort, and if it does work it would suggest some pretty significant limitations in the graphics engine that need to be addressed. In a non-DL setting, what is the problem that this is trying to fix, and who has actually tested it in P3D v4 to confirm that it makes a measurable difference?

Dynamic lighting is a little different, as it's a new addition to the sim, and there's some clear reports of specific users getting very low frame rates, which appear to be solved by this procedure. This suggests that the new lighting method causes problems certain circumstances - if we can better understand what these are, it's more likely we can identify and fix the problems.

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7 hours ago, FalconAF said:

 To be sure, there is absolutely NO REASON you should have to pan around your airplane in Spot View for 2 - 3 MINUTES to get things to work correctly.  FIVE SPINS around the aircraft MAXIMUM should load EVERYTHING in the entire 360-degree view you could spin through.  If it takes MINUTES of spinning, you have a much different problem with your sim and/or computer.  And in the case of this thread, it is STILL most likely related to the use of the Dynamic Lighting that doesn't work correctly yet (with other than default aircraft LM included in the sim, AND possibly addon airports that aren't "playing nice" with Dynamic Lighting yet either).

My apologies for the length of my post, but some of the "solutions" presented in this thread are ludicrous.

But 3-5 minutes will help that all ai a/c are loaded (UTL), jet ways do there moves etc. During this short time period my fps increases from 18 up to 22/23 just sitting in a PMDG a/c at a busy airport like EDDF. Panning around in spot view helps additionally.

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