markoni

switch to 4k - performance expectations

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Hi,

I am thinking of upgrading my monitor. Plan is to go for 4K. Now, I am using an old  1280 x 1024, 19 inch monitor with a great fps results. I have never had such a smooth experience in any flight sim, from FS9 up to now P3DV4. The trick is that my monitor is set to 50hz (lower is not possible) :( and my hardware is almost capable to keep that fps in most of conditions. In some cases it goes below 45 fps and I can observe some small stutters but not a big deal. My plan is to go for bigger screen, probably 28 inch from 19 right now. Initially my plan was to go for 1440p monitor but it seems it is not possible to find a one with the possibility to run at 30hz. As far as I know, only 4k monitors has this possibility, without facing some graphical artifacts. My main concern is if my hardware would be able to deal with 4K resolution steady with 30 fps in all possible conditions. My sliders are set pretty high with 8SS AA now. I know that there is no need for this high AA settings with higher resolution, but my plan is not to go for 4K if I will not be able to have steady 30 fps with high visual quality. I would definitely go for  1440p or even 1080p monitor capable to run at 30hz, but I think find the one is almost impossible.

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30 fps in all conditions at 4K with 8x SSAA on a 1070 isn't gonna happen.  I can't go beyond 4xSSAA at 3840x2160 and hold 30 fps "in all possible conditions" even with a pair of overclocked 1080Ti GPUs. 

Given that you're planning on a smaller monitor, you could ditch the SSAA and go to 4xMSAA at 4K and probably get away with it--a small 4K monitor doesn't need much AA, as the jaggies are small enough to fall below your visual acuity threshold.  There might be some issues with flicker/shimmer still, though.

You might also consider a ~27-inch G-sync monitor and run with the frames locked at 30.

One other option...when I run FSX on my 55-inch 4K TV, I use a smaller resolution than the full 4K (because FSX relies on the CPU for frame composition and does not make nearly as good a use of the GPU).  Sometimes I run 3440x1440, sometimes 2560x1600, and with scaling turned off, it appears in the center of the screen with a border around it.  This would be future-proof, as you could eventually upgrade to a better GPU and then use the entire 4K pixel matrix.  But for now, you can experiment with the resolution and use whatever your hardware will support.

Regards

 

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37 minutes ago, w6kd said:

30 fps in all conditions at 4K with 8x SSAA on a 1070 isn't gonna happen.  I can't go beyond 4xSSAA at 3840x2160 and hold 30 fps "in all possible conditions" even with a pair of overclocked 1080Ti GPUs. 

Given that you're planning on a smaller monitor, you could ditch the SSAA and go to 4xMSAA at 4K and probably get away with it--a small 4K monitor doesn't need much AA, as the jaggies are small enough to fall below your visual acuity threshold.  There might be some issues with flicker/shimmer still, though.

You might also consider a ~27-inch G-sync monitor and run with the frames locked at 30.

One other option...when I run FSX on my 55-inch 4K TV, I use a smaller resolution than the full 4K (because FSX relies on the CPU for frame composition and does not make nearly as good a use of the GPU).  Sometimes I run 3440x1440, sometimes 2560x1600, and with scaling turned off, it appears in the center of the screen with a border around it.  This would be future-proof, as you could eventually upgrade to a better GPU and then use the entire 4K pixel matrix.  But for now, you can experiment with the resolution and use whatever your hardware will support.

Regards

 

Wow, I didn't know 4k affects performance that much. This is not an option then. I don't want to trade my current performance. Since you mentioned gsync I would like to ask you is it possible to turn off gsync for P3D and set frequency manually to 30 hz in NCP? I am asking because, based on my research, it seems that gsync doesn't prevent stuters at low fps effectively as setting manualy freq to 30hz and turn on vsync in p3d, with fps set to unlimited. I have been thinking about asus pg248q, spec says that it operates in range of 30 to 144 hz, but I am not sure does that mean it could be fix to 30 hz only with gsync off.

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4k with 30hz was ok for me with a 980ti up until p3d 4. Then performance was worse. 1080 is probably better for 4k. 

The 30 hz trick is really nice. Very smooth, really recommend!

In 4k i only need 2xmsaa so atm no performance problems with dl.

You will need a lot of vram if you use 4k textures. 

I think that with moderate settings you could get away with a 1070 and 4k

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4 hours ago, markoni said:

Wow, I didn't know 4k affects performance that much. This is not an option then. I don't want to trade my current performance. Since you mentioned gsync I would like to ask you is it possible to turn off gsync for P3D and set frequency manually to 30 hz in NCP? I am asking because, based on my research, it seems that gsync doesn't prevent stuters at low fps effectively as setting manualy freq to 30hz and turn on vsync in p3d, with fps set to unlimited. I have been thinking about asus pg248q, spec says that it operates in range of 30 to 144 hz, but I am not sure does that mean it could be fix to 30 hz only with gsync off.

Going from 1280x1024 to 4K (3840x2160), you're pushing well over 6 times as many pixels per frame.  That doesn't come without a cost...and the processing power and memory bandwidth required to do AA/AF on the larger frames doesn't necessarily scale linearly.

You'd have to look at the monitor manual to see if it can be configured at a fixed horizontal scan rate of 30Hz.  I don't think it's possible to drive the scan frequency in software (e.g. with NCP), though.

Regards

 

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Interesting thread! 

I'm about to order a new monitor for primarily p3d. My sim pc is also my office pc, bit of coding/video editing. No other... Ahem... Games on there. ;) I've spent the last week researching monitors and didn't even consider 4K.

1440p seems to be the sweet spot. Even the pro gamers are only just getting onto 4K and the hardware still isn't really where it needs to be. At 27 inches, a 1440p monitor would be a much better choice than 4K right now, especially when it comes to P3D. 

I'm on a 970 for a couple of months until I upgrade my gaming pc, at which point my sim pc gets the 1070. I've tried to read as much as possible about gsync but I'm not sold on it. Not worth the (significant) price increase in my opinion and I'd only go for it if I was a pro gamer playing Dota or overwatch 24/7. However, I'm still going for a gaming monitor, with good color accuracy for the photo video work. Currently settled on the Acer XF270HUA. The Acer Predator (same 'IPS' panel but gsync enabled)  is 200 euros more.

Still, I'd be interested in others opinions on monitors. I have a day or two before I make the order! :) 

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In addition to P3D and XP11, I use my 4K system (see sig. for details) for some coding and 3D graphics work. I totally love all the screen real estate! Every time I open a file now on my 1080p system, I feel cramped. Keep in mind that a 4K monitor is equivalent to four 1080p monitors. So if your used to the pixel density of say, a 27" monitor, you'll want a 54" 4K screen for the text/imagery to be 'the same size' as you 1080p monitor. My 4K screen is 58" and is as bright, sharp and clear as any 1080p monitor.

As far as simming performance goes, I lowered AA settings because I didn't really need them to get good IQ and experience very similar GPU utilization as I got with 1080p. I hate going back to 1080p for simming now that I'm spoiled with 4K. YMMV however. What's good for me may not be good for you. 

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Getting really good performance at 4k with my old 4690k and a gtx 1070 using 4xmsaa

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You can even experiment with 4XMSAA + MFAA enabled (which should get you closer to 8XMSAA without the hit)...

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Just as a reminder: if you have a nVidia GeForce card, you can basically "simulate" all possible resolutions using DSR function. Means: if you have a FullHD monitor with 1920x1080 and you want to know how your rig would perform at 4K, simply activate DSR (tick the resolutions you want to test) inside your nVidia Control Panel, fire up P3D and select 4K as resolution. Nothing more easy than this, no?

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5 minutes ago, AnkH said:

Just as a reminder: if you have a nVidia GeForce card, you can basically "simulate" all possible resolutions using DSR function. Means: if you have a FullHD monitor with 1920x1080 and you want to know how your rig would perform at 4K, simply activate DSR (tick the resolutions you want to test) inside your nVidia Control Panel, fire up P3D and select 4K as resolution. Nothing more easy than this, no?

That is great, I didn't know that. Thanks, I will try.

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Thanks all for your input. Does anyone try to limit fps to 30 fps over let's say NI and set adaptive half refresh rate in NCP global profile and play on 60hz monitor. Can this solution provide smooth experience as 30hz monitor? Also, can anyone recomend 1080p or 1440p monitor with 30 hz capability?

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Not everyone finds a 30 Hz refresh rate on their monitor the path to ultimate smoothness. Doesn't work well for me. I went (back) to 60 Hz with 1/2 refresh sync and frames limited go 30 in game. 

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47 minutes ago, odourboy said:

Not everyone finds a 30 Hz refresh rate on their monitor the path to ultimate smoothness. Doesn't work well for me. I went (back) to 60 Hz with 1/2 refresh sync and frames limited go 30 in game. 

 

48 minutes ago, odourboy said:

Not everyone finds a 30 Hz refresh rate on their monitor the path to ultimate smoothness. Doesn't work well for me. I went (back) to 60 Hz with 1/2 refresh sync and frames limited go 30 in game. 

1/2 refresh sync in global NCP profile? Ad far as I know it doesn't have any impact on p3d since it doesn't work in full screen mode.

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2 minutes ago, markoni said:

 

1/2 refresh sync in global NCP profile? Ad far as I know it doesn't have any impact on p3d since it doesn't work in full screen mode.

Oops.. we're in the p3d forum. You are correct. Used vsync in NCP for FSX and vsync set in game for p3d. 

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