>Ryan:>>Not even close to what? Are you a real-world Boeing pilot? If>so, good for you, ok. I am not a real-world pilot, and neither>are most of the people in this hobby. Personally, aside from>the advances in computer graphics, which is phenomenal,>amazing, and enhances our enjoyment of this hobby, I find>thatthis "as-real-as-it-gets" mentality has gotten a bit>out-of-hand, to the point where most of us probably spend as>much time updating and tweaking FS9, our graphics cards, and>FSUIPC (admittedly fun), as we do flying in FS9 altogether. I>am a real-world father, with a real-world , full-time job, who>fantasizes himself as a competant, virtual heavy jet pilot. My>time is limited. I do not have the time to learn how the 747>or 767 systems work inside and out, much as I might like to,>but I do enjoy planning IFR flights for one on real-world>routes, in real-world weather and using real-world Departures,>Arrivals, Approaches, ATC (FS9 and Online)etc. The joy of>simming is different for each of us, and I hope that if I'm>ever on a real-world 767 and the crew is incapacitated,>someone like you is on my flight to work the systems....I'll>fly the aircraft...>>>http://www.graphics-free.com/animations/tr...ges/plane_6.gif>>Alex Christoff>N562Z>Baltimore, MDWell said.

Good grief, finally someone speaks clearly about the Hobby. I fully agree with Alex Christoff comments..The whole idea is to fly and learn and understand all one should know about sceneries, Graphic cards , painting, panels , flying GA's, Exec Jets , Commercial, etc, messing around with FS,etc, BUT not to the point of getting carried away with those things to the point that very little flying is done.I always read posting from the same fellow pilots and I wonder when they get enough time to fly. Are they all singles and rich, no wife, no Kids, no other hobbies????I have the feeling that some how this Forum is being "habitated" by a large percentage the so called Hard core flyers or pilots (or perhaps look alike or pseudo hard core pilots). Perhaps a different Forum for die hard HARD CORE pilots should be set up by AVSIM to caters to these pilots. What I expect from them are reasonable suggestions about some technical questions or problems I or some of us have. While some fellow pilots here have been lucky about gtetting real good advices toward solving their problems or claryfying doubts, recently I have not been so lucky (very few takers of my posting- plenty of readers though), and I have had to take my problems to other similar Forums where they have been looked at and have given some suggestion). Sometimes I feel there is much preocupation with things like "what they expect from FS10", understandably but no to be taken to extremes. Just look at the size of the number of posting on some issues that have been there for several days and you will see what I am talking about. I go to the Forum regurlarly to learn about the lastes news, about new addons coming up and objective opinions about aircraft (the whole setup) coming out, like this Wilco B777, which suits me fine for the kind of flying I do, and maybe perhaps this plane could even be a little out of my league.I really can not understand how a person that doe not even own the Wilco orFeelthere B777 can criticize the aircraft just by looking probably to a gif. picure shown in the Wilco SITE! To me that is hardly objective and very negative about the whole issue.I agree that the B737 PIC is sort of a Hog on FPS, but the patches are helping a lot, and if one has a reasonable uptodatePC you can Live with it. I fly it wit a merge with the 50N Flight 1 aircraft and the marriage is a good one. I read about the merge BTW right here in this Forum a couple of days back.Getting back to my main issue,I think this bit about as REAL as IT GETS is getting out of hand. Like Alex above indicated I am not getting paid for having to go through huge Manuals like the PMDG B747, the LDS 767, etc, and ridiculous complicated panels like those produced by MDMAX, I think that what they are called, have you seen the size of that (those)manual ???).We re not real commercial pilots working for a real company , and as I said above we do not get pay to go and read practically the same thing a real pilot has to go throuh.I have a SEL license (Bonanza A36) and I find this Hobby very exciting, but there are other obligations in live.... i.e Hobbies of a Higher level...Sorry If I made this such a long posting , and excuse my English. I did go to school in US Universities but my native language is Spanish, not English.Edmundo CardenasCaracas, Venezuela

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"Not even close to what?"I had a long post submitted here, that I'm going to retract, as although I do stand behind what I said in it, it was made more out of frustration than any attempt at real dialogue.I'll leave it at this instead:Why do you feel the need to purchase payware products, if you aren't looking for increased complexity ?That is certainly a simplification of the issue, but is a genuine question, and something I just do not understand, especially since, at the end of this thread, you end up sticking with a freeware alternative anyway ?:-hmmm

EDIT by saudi_777: Fixed the typo for ya, Dillon. :-hahBrian I agree with what you

Dillon:I bought the hardcore products (aircraft) because of the HYPE surrounding their release, and inevitably have been disappointed with what I got because first and foremost, most of them required PC gymnastics to get them to work even just barely with hardware that has stood the test of time and proven reliable year in and year out, namely the GoFlight gear. Like I said, if you don't mind flying with a mouse an keyboard, great. Now before you accuse me of being anti-payware, let me just say that I have purchased, and will continue to purchase payware add-ons. There is a plethora of companies / individuals doing great work far too numerous to list here, but to give an example, you don't have to do much to enjoy the work of FS Genesis' Justin Tyme or any of the wonderful MegaScenery releases. Just install and with a truly minimal amount of tweaking: Viola! Your flightsim experienced has been changed (enhanced) forever. I know FSUIPC is indispensible to FS9 and add-on software and I have explored that utility inside and out, using it for just about everything it has been designed to be used for, but why must I rely on that program to make a $40 or $50 dollar piece of add-on software just barely functional in FS9, when I can be flying the 4th or 5th leg of an amazing IFR route anywhere in the world with my MelJet 744 or any of the truly amazing freeware aircraft available from Project Opensky, complemented by lovely panels by Ken Mitchell and others? I think the ultimate irony in this wonderfully complex hobby of ours is that nost of us, myself included, probably end up figuring out what it takes from our computers to run any given current release of Flight Simulator just about the time the next version is set to come out! Which always makes me wonder just what the H_ll reason I spent so much time messing with it in the first place, because you know I'll be in line to get the day the next one is releasedMasichistically Yours,http://www.graphics-free.com/animations/tr...ges/plane_6.gifAlex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MD

'ATP polite'Oops..ATP Pilot... :+

Alex,You're obviously frustrated, but, it's really kinda hard to follow you on this tangent, or to even sympathize...I could easily make the argument of how "out-of-hand" I think the demands users of add-on hardware have gotten, how much it might take away from development of other features I'd rather see, but I never would, because that's not the way it works...FS is what YOU make it, if it's gotten to be too much for you, you have no one to blame but yourself.To quote you:"...when I can be flying the 4th or 5th leg of an amazing IFR route anywhere in the world with my MelJet 744 or any of the truly amazing freeware aircraft available from Project Opensky, complemented by lovely panels by Ken Mitchell and others?"So why don't you just go do that then ?:-hmmm

Brian I agree 100%... Alex let me address some of what your saying here:"Now before you accuse me of being anti-payware"I'm not accusing you of anything..."I bought the hardcore products (aircraft) because of the HYPE surrounding their release, and inevitably have been disappointed with what I got because first and foremost, most of them required PC gymnastics to get them to work even just barely with hardware that has stood the test of time and proven reliable year in and year out, namely the GoFlight gear. Like I said, if you don't mind flying with a mouse an keyboard, great."Alex my specs are below. I use a CH Yoke/Peddles and have no problem with the various add-ons on the market (I actually own most of them all). It's funny you mentioned "Flying with a Mouse" because in real airliners that's somewhat the case. No you don't have a mouse but just the same the onboard computers do most of the work. Just wait until PMDG releases the Airbus A320. I'm not familiar with GoFlight so I can't comment on that but modern airliners are basically automated. If you want more of a hands on experience may I recommend DreamFleet

Getting back on topic I just want to say I was on the FeelThere beta team for the PIC 737 project. I fought to have the visual look of the VC updated to at least PSS's level. Like what was mentioned above everything else about PIC737 is top notch. The Avionics, FDE, etc are right up there with the best. At the end of the day the add-on is used to fly and utilize the complex systems. PIC737 fits the bill nicely for that (meaning a realistic 737-400 series in FS2k4/FSX).I can't comment on the 777 because I only recieved one beta on that. I told them the visuals should be top notch and nothing short of what CLS is producing now. Overland's A320 series is another awesome looking 'lite' package as is Aerosim's L1011. It's up to a developer the importance they put on any given aspect of their design. I personally feel a 'lite' package must make up visually what it lacks technically. I'm sure many of you would agree who own any of the add-ons I mentioned above...

>Ryan:>>Not even close to what? Are you a real-world Boeing pilot? If>so, good for you, ok. I am not a real-world pilot, and neither>are most of the people in this hobby. Personally, aside from>the advances in computer graphics, which is phenomenal,>amazing, and enhances our enjoyment of this hobby, I find>thatthis "as-real-as-it-gets" mentality has gotten a bit>out-of-hand, to the point where most of us probably spend as>much time updating and tweaking FS9, our graphics cards, and>FSUIPC (admittedly fun), as we do flying in FS9 altogether. I>am a real-world father, with a real-world , full-time job, who>fantasizes himself as a competant, virtual heavy jet pilot. My>time is limited. I do not have the time to learn how the 747>or 767 systems work inside and out, much as I might like to,>but I do enjoy planning IFR flights for one on real-world>routes, in real-world weather and using real-world Departures,>Arrivals, Approaches, ATC (FS9 and Online)etc. The joy of>simming is different for each of us, and I hope that if I'm>ever on a real-world 767 and the crew is incapacitated,>someone like you is on my flight to work the systems....I'll>fly the aircraft...>>>http://www.graphics-free.com/animations/tr...ges/plane_6.gif>>Alex Christoff>N562Z>Baltimore, MDHi Alex,I think that your post, hands down, is one of the best ever in FS history. And I am sure that many think like you do, but acts like "wannabes", because they want to be a real pilots, but can never be.:-wavehttp://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifMy specs are:Dell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVo, flashed to a X850 XT PE. Catalyst 5.9ATITool V0.24DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP2E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"370Gb HD (120 GB Maxtor, 250GB Samsung) 7200rpm ATA Lacie 250Gb Extern HD

Nothing wrong with having "lite" versions, but at what cost? I don't get it? If you want freeware quality or you're happy with "lite" packages, then why slam complex add ons and make an issue of it?Someone said "...finally someone speaks clearly about the Hobby." Well, you don't speak for me, or the majority of people I see posting on various simulator web sites. I don't feel the hobby is flooded with complex payware planes. If anything, it's the opposite IMO. I personally feel the reason most people complain about the complexities of payware is that they're lazy. I don't care to see people buying PMDG, then asking for the default GPS. It is very easy to learn how to fly these planes properly (e.g., programming FMC, turning on the right switches) and you don't have to know the systems on the level of a real pilot. You think I have any clue how the internal workings of a 747 work, or what one does if a system fails? No. You say you're too busy or can't be bothered learning the basics to fly complex add ons, well stop buying them, or maybe consider a different hobby. Fact is, you can learn these planes in steps, no one is forcing you to learn them overnight. Most tutorials don't take all that long to go through and they get you on the road to successful flight just fine.

I do Brian, and the only frustration is listening to wanabes diss software based on a gif image on a website and their subjective perception of realism. Most people only feel that way because everyone else does....Advertising, marketing. Not that the work put into the project is anything less than phenomenal, but are there really a majority of flight simmers who enjoy the 60-90 minute preflight it takes to get a certain payware 747-400 ready to fly? If so, then that's great, good for them, I'm impressed with their devotion but I am also happy to sit with the minority of those that do not. Alex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MD

Let me ask Brian, Dillon and Orlaam a question. With say, the PMDG 737 or 747, or the PSS 777, or even the Level-D 767 (lets leave the Keyboard-equipped Airbus line out of this for the moment) - when you want to make an adjustment on the MCP, what, physically, and specifically do YOU do, on your rig while running the software in FS9, to do it? What buttons do you press, what keys do you hit, how do you access the sim? I'm not interested in what a real-world pilot does according to a manual, that we can look up. What do you do, with your computer setup, to make the adjustment? Say you want to descend from FL 180 to FL 100, and slow down from 300 to 250 KIAS at FL 100. Lets assume you're being vectored, there's traffic, and that the FMC is not flying the aircraft, that you are going to transition to the MCP. How do you guys make the changes?Alex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MD

Are you talking about basic adjustment of the autopilot???If your not flying using the FMC all you have to do is manually punch in the decent rate and heading you want on the autopilot. It shouldn't be anymore complicated than that... :-hmmm

While you are all free to bash each other over who has the rights to "bash" software (somewhat of an ironic phrase isn't it?) i'll just go and give you my quick opinion on it (only had time for one circle with it today).airplane visuals:exterior model is well done with good attention to detail. compared to the PSS, it WINS. sorry folks, that's just they way i see it. it's pretty. butcockpit:not much of a fan of 2d cockpits anymore but i will give the PSS one the edge here. it is smoother, more proportional and generally feels more refinedVC:what a joke! textures: 1/10fit and finish: 2/10proportionality/size/etc: 3/10 (seats just kill it)moveable objects: 0/10gauges: 6/10clickable button things and such: 3/10overhead: 2/10 oh god.night LIGHTNING: what night lightning? where!? there is such? 0/10sense of immersion: 6/10total overal: 4/10i give the pss VC a 7/10 on the whole for reference.flight model:quite stable model. lands well and cruises well. unfortunately it loves to go up and requires a lot of negative trim to keep it level @ 250ktperformance: it runs good. very good for the matter. fluid, no stutters, good fps. about 3x faster than the PSS in fact. draw your own conclusions. overal.. considering the price, the lack of a VC (this one does NOT cut it feelthere), empty overhead space in the 2d, somewhat thick gauges, no cabin, good external model, decent flight dynamics, no systems, good fps i will have to give it a 5/10personal advice? pass. for that price, you can do so much better. but if the other 777 just won't run on your system than the wilco one will be a blessing i suppose. had the VC been good, then this would have been a great package, alas "cutting corners" is engraved on every piece of the product. if you want to dispute any of the above, feel free to ask for screenshots or buy it and compare.