The Cost of flying in P3D - relative worth

[Bobsk8 12,745]

1 hour ago, ErichB said:

I'm not sure Christopher.  I think I just have a mental block with Airbus. I enjoy Boeing flight decks more. and for the past few months, I've also been on a long-haul streak. 

I'm with you. Got an Airbus pretty quickly when I returned to simming several years ago. Got bored with it pretty quickly, and then got the 737 NGX and the Q400, and that is all I fly now. haven't touched the Airbus in years. 

[bbain1187 118]

I used to fly nothing but the PMDG 737 NGX. From it's early days in 2011 stuttering on my PC that could barely handle it in FSX, to its glory days in P3D. Then I bought the FsLabs A320 and can't put it down. I even bought the Maddog when it came out, haven't done a single flight in it. Those who are saying the Airbus isn't immersive obviously haven't tried the FsLabs. From the whine of the hydraulics to the realistic single-engine taxi behavior...it's ruined other airplanes for me. The unrealistic ground handling and jerky autopilot behavior in the NGX is probably enough for me to never go back. That's how much of a snob the FsLabs bus has made me. I'm hoping the next version of the 737 from PMDG will be enough to make me come back over from the dark side. I didn't get the 777 due to them starting with the most unpopular variation as their base model, then charging an upgrade for the -300ER and never offering the -200ER. That really turned me off. And given their pricing on the 747 I may hold off on that too. But what really turned me off from PMDG was refusing to optimize their dynamic lights to make the NGX flyable in 4k, or even offering a legacy lights option, after forcing me to shell out full price for the NGX again which was literally just a port-over from FSX. It makes me shake my head that there are still people out there that fly nothing but their products. 

Ben 

Edited September 26, 2018 by bbain1187

[simbol 5,821]

 

5 minutes ago, bbain1187 said:

 Those who are saying the Airbus isn't immersive obviously haven't tried the FsLabs. 

Ben 

I don't think the immersion is the issue, it is all about preference. Airbus relies very much on automation, fly by wire, etc. it has incredible computers, etc. and therefore they are amazing machines however some people prefer to feel they are in command of the aircraft instead of the other way around..

For example although I fly both, I am more inclined towards Boeing as when I fly it, it makes me feel I am actually in command.. but when I fly the Airbus it makes me feel that I have to do what the computer on board is expecting and indicating as otherwise things can go wrong.

It is just a matter of preference, nothing to do with what product is better, it is imposible to do such comparison as you cannot compare apples with oranges..

Regards,
S.

[Mitch24 194]

While P3D is on the pricey end, I think we all agree that Flight Simulation as we know it would not be what it is today without PMDG...

[Christopher Low 5,354]

What is unrealistic about the ground handling of the 737NGX? It feels perfectly fine to me.

[bbain1187 118]

6 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

What is unrealistic about the ground handling of the 737NGX? It feels perfectly fine to me.

Breakaway thrust is only 23-24% N1 compared to around 40% sometimes in the real world depending on weight...feels very overpowered on the ground. I realize this is bug in the ground friction of the sim but it can be overcome by external FDE modeling. It's a 7 year-old product so I don't fault PMDG for that, it's just one thing I notice now after flying the FSL bus.

Ben

Edited September 26, 2018 by bbain1187

[bbain1187 118]

I'm not saying PMDG isn't a top developer and a valuable contributor to our hobby, I'm just saying they aren't the be-all-end-all of flight sim and those who limit themselves to only their products are really missing out on other great stuff, IMHO.

Ben 

[Chock 17,769]

3 hours ago, bbain1187 said:

It makes me shake my head that there are still people out there that fly nothing but their products. 

Ben 

Yup, there is among some, the notion that PMDG is the peak which everyone has to aim for. Now in fairness, a company doesn't gain a reputation like that for no reason, but what a lot of people seem to forget concerning that reputation, is that it is perhaps more than anything the FS2004 Boeing 737 NG which was the foundation of that reputation for PMDG. And deservedly so it has to be said, as it is, even today, still a very good and detailed simulation of an NG.

But those who like to hold PMDG's reputation in such esteem might like to consider that in doing so, they are to some degree damning them with praise, because who was the main thrust behind that NG, in being the lead developer for PMDG at the time? Yup, it was Lefteris Kalamaras, who was also behind their much-admired MD11, prior to leaving them in 2008 to form what we are now familiar with as Flight Sim Labs. In other words, you've got the two most popular jet airliners there are in the world, both simulated realistically for a PC-based flight simulator, and right at the heart of what made that happen is the guy at the helm of FSL, not at PMDG.

Of course since that time, with products such as those setting a high bar for other developers, and in doing so greatly influencing just how far they needed to go to rise to the challenge of matching those impressive spearheads, we've seen products from developers such as Majestic, Leonardo, Flight 1, TFDi and A2A well and truly pick up the ball and run with it. Not to be outdone however, both PMDG and FSL have often run as fast too. But it is as well to remember that, for a very long time indeed when presented with numerous half-baked attempts at doing so, many people in the flight sim world were of the opinion that it wasn't even possible to make a realistically simulated Airbus A320 which would run in FSX. It was FSL which proved that to be incorrect and managed to pull it off courtesy of Lefteris, who had previously shown the way with the NG when at PMDG. As such, I still think the FSL A320 is the present pinnacle of what can be done to simulate an airliner in obsessive detail for FSX and P3D; the one to try to knock off the pedestal as it were in terms of realism. But there are some which come very close...

Thus to imagine we are only witnessing a one horse race, or even a two horse race would be to ignore things such as the truly majestic indeed Majestic Dash Eight Q400, which is a spectacularly good simulation of that aeroplane and were it not for the fact that the Q400 is a simpler aeroplane than the A320 is in terms of systems, you'd have to say it was its equal. Likewise, the levels which A2A have gone to in simulating what is under the hood of all those aeroplanes we like so much, is something which has set its own benchmark for others to match and these are by no means the only contenders who do this, one only has to look at something like TFDi's TrueGlass to know that is the case.

So yeah, if someone likes PMDG stuff, I'm not going to say they aren't getting some really excellent simulated aeroplanes - I know, I've got quite a few of them - but the idea that nobody can match them is at best partisan, but at much worse, incredibly blinkered.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Chock

[Guest]

The 64bit door is allowing developers to explore their creative side and also allows for increased complexity.  There are a lot of extremely well done aircraft from Leonardo Maddog, to PMDG, to FSL, to A2A, to MJC, to Aerosoft, to TFDi, to Milviz, to QW, etc. etc. ... the downside is that such high quality and complex aircraft require more developers and/or development investment ($$$) and of course requires higher retail price to recover costs/investments and pay the bills.  Putting piracy aside which adds a significant amount to the cost of the product that us honest consumers assume the burden of those who participate in theft, it's taking longer to developer products as the bar keeps being raised. 

I would venture to guess that many have explored less than 40% of what they actually purchased ... especially when it comes to system failures and how to react to those failures ... but not just aircraft, scenery as well (other than Beta testers).  How many have actually explored every nook and cranny of a 3rd party airport or city or area, yet the developer may have spent hours just getting that fence to look right which may go completely unnoticed?  

As far as P3D being pricey, don't really understand that?  How is it pricey?  $60, $199, $10/mo, $20/mo with all minor version updates (v4.1, v4.2, v4.3, v4.x ...) being free and only major version updates cost (i.e. V4 ot V5)   FSX was $60 (back in 2006), then Acceleration $30 so not sure I see/understand how P3D is being much different on the expense front? 

Cheers, Rob. 

[Patco Lch 1,466]

27 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

I would venture to guess that many have explored less than 40% of what they actually purchased ... especially when it comes to system failures and how to react to those failures ... but not just aircraft, scenery as well (other than Beta testers).  How many have actually explored every nook and cranny of a 3rd party airport or city or area, yet the developer may have spent hours just getting that fence to look right which may go completely unnoticed?  

Yep, Guilty as charged. I could spend the rest of my life exploring what I have now if I didn't spend another dollar and yet stay very busy.

[Guest]

It's also a matter of perspective and what you are used too. I know a lot of Aerofly FS 2 users, that are new to this hobby, find the prices for for for instance airport addons totally ridiculous. Paying 30 bucks for ONE AIRPORT? Are you kidding? I myself think that 70 bucks is already really on the limit for an addon aircraft... I couldn't justify spending more than that on a plane! Then again... I absolutely adore the Majestic Q400 and if an improved version would come out for a next version of P3D I'd be willing to pay 150 for it, simply because I know I will use it and love it... But what's more: another hobby of mine is (or more or less was) creating music. And for that buying a single virtual instrument costing 350 bucks was a no brainer. Getting a virtual orchestra for 650 bucks? Sure! So how come I am having problems with prices of some flight sim addons...? Specially when I get a LOT more fun out of them than those music addons gave me? It's all a matter of perspective. And of what are considered regular prices. A lot of Steam users think 5 bucks is a lot for one plane already. We here might think 50 is quite something already. A real world pilot might say 500 bucks is cheap compared to the real thing...!

In the end only you yourself can decide what this hobby is worth to you.

I have to add though that I do get annoyed a bit when I feel a developer is taking advantage of things and asks more than needed. Or more than others do. I won't call names here. Then the money isn't really the problem but the principle.

[David Vega 348]

PMDG aircraft are good based on how much they simulate and how well they simulate of their real counterparts.  But, are they overpriced?  Part of pricing a product is estimating what customers would be willing to pay for it.  How many hours would it take to develop, the developers' talents, external cost, i.e., Boeing data, are also taken into consideration.  I'm sure they also consider their brand (users not only pay to have a simulated B744, but a PMDG simulated B744).  With this in mind, it's also about what the market will bear, especially when competition is close to nil.  In this community customers are programmed against competition.  I'm certain many would complaint if some other developer says they're working on a comparable B737NG because PMDG already sells one, whereas competition with reasonably similar products would be beneficial to the customer.  Influential developers lead the customer base away from practices that may diminish their power base, i.e., what happened to FSW.  

I would like to see more developers jump in and produce quality airplanes, scenery, utilities, even though similar offerings exists.  I applaud those developers that accept that and move on, like ImagineSim saying they would continue supporting and developing ATL knowing FlyTampa is working on the competition.  What about a B747 that is high quality, no bugs, but doesn't simulate failures and thus sells for less than PMDG's.  I would trade failure simulation for a lower cost, quality option.  

[shivers9 1,174]

This is a very good thread and something I have often wondered about. First let me say thanks to Rob for telling the world that I don't spend near enough time exploring the things I already own. LOL....yes Rob I know you we talking about me! 😓

It has alwayed bothered me that in this hobby, it seems like without fail, any new product that is announced is followed by is it free? How many times have I read "I had this in FS2002.... why do I have to pay for it again in P3D?" I always think about the folks who have worked untold hours to bring these products to market. Many of these add-ons are in a way like an Art piece especially to the Dev's. Then the fist word out of some dummy's mouth is thanks for your effort but it's not worth my money. I am surprised we ever get some of our nice toys. That kind of rudness makes this hobby different than any I have ever been a part of. Having said that, I have spent most of my money on cheap women and booze and the rest I just wasted. This I do know....I have bought some crappy Flight Sim add ons over the years but I am 100% sure that I never paid to much for any of them. So I think the cost of Flying Sims is in 100's of ways worth every penny you can scrape together.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, shivers9 said:

yes Rob I know you we talking about me!

No, are you kidding me, I'm just as "guilty" as anyone else ... perhaps "guilty" is not a good word, more like "still very busy with the 40%" ... over time I hope to reach 60-70% utilized.  Like other's have suggested ... so many things to do, so little time to do them ... who knows, maybe someday I'll actually finish a manual from top to bottom?

Ironically, I was listening to Jeff N.'s (airline pilot guy -- actually 3 guys and gals) and they were commenting on a 777 Air India that lost several systems on approach to JFK ... ILS wouldn't lock, TCAS down, etc. etc. ... (live ATC recordings ... love that service and highly recommend donations)

I haven't really spent much time exploring "failures" in some of the aircraft I've purchased ... that's an entire new world of things for me to checkout and see how well I respond and what action I take.  But after listening to Jeff N. and Nick's input and how there was ATC confusion over terminology LNAV/VNAV vs. RNAV with the 777 crew ... the procedures for diagnostics of failures, situation (fuel remaining), weather, and time to react, it's fascination reality I'm very able to explore with some of the more complex aircraft I have.

Maybe this has already been discussed so apology if it has.  But as a reference point, it's a good example of just how much more there is one's purchase.

Cheers, Rob.

 

[dave2013 1,130]

34 minutes ago, shivers9 said:

This is a very good thread and something I have often wondered about. First let me say thanks to Rob for telling the world that I don't spend near enough time exploring the things I already own. LOL....yes Rob I know you we talking about me! 😓

It has alwayed bothered me that in this hobby, it seems like without fail, any new product that is announced is followed by is it free? How many times have I read "I had this in FS2002.... why do I have to pay for it again in P3D?" I always think about the folks who have worked untold hours to bring these products to market. Many of these add-ons are in a way like an Art piece especially to the Dev's. Then the fist word out of some dummy's mouth is thanks for your effort but it's not worth my money. I am surprised we ever get some of our nice toys. That kind of rudness makes this hobby different than any I have ever been a part of. Having said that, I have spent most of my money on cheap women and booze and the rest I just wasted. This I do know....I have bought some crappy Flight Sim add ons over the years but I am 100% sure that I never paid to much for any of them. So I think the cost of Flying Sims is in 100's of ways worth every penny you can scrape together.

Firstly, it seems to me that the OP's post was simply more praise of PMDG which I think it's safe to say we've all seen quite a lot of in these forums.  I own PMDG's 737 and 777 and they're great planes, but I don't feel the need to heap mountains of praise on the developers because I paid a lot of money for them and PMDG made a lot of money for their work.  What we need in this hobby is more competition which will bring down prices and give us better quality addons.

Your statement about "dummys" complaining about overpriced addons isn't helpful and only serves to insult some people.  What about the "untold hours" of work that freeware developers put into their addons without asking for one cent?  I'll tell you one thing that would definitely make this hobby more expensive: if all these freeware developers get greedy and decide that they want to start getting compensated for their work like so many of these overly-worshiped payware developers.  Thank goodness that hasn't happened, yet.

Dave

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by dave2013
Added sentence