10 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

if all these freeware developers get greedy and decide that they want to start getting compensated for their work

How is that "greedy"?  What if they simply just want to pay their mortgage, buy food, take the kids on vacation, pay medical bills, earn some extra cash?  You make it sound like working for money is a "bad thing"?  What's wrong with praise regardless of whether or not a product is free or payware?

Prices go down when volume goes up ... there are many ways to increase volume:

1.  Praise the developers
2.  Convert theft (piracy) into sales
3.  Encourage others to get involved in flight simulation
4.  Help others resolve issues and provide a friendly environment in which to grow, share ideas, enhance learning, find the "fun"

Cheers, Rob.

The key to getting value in flight sim is for each user to figure out for themselves as quickly as possible what Addons they will use and only buy those while resisting the hype on products ( probably very good ones, I might add ) that for whatever reason don't fit your way of simming and resist buying them. It took me 10 years to figure this one out. 

Reference the parts of full study aircraft add-ons I still want and am willing to pay for the features I don't use and don't take the time to learn such as system failures and emergency procedures. Just knowing it's all there makes it a real plane simulation. Knowing things break if not handled properly adds so much more. I bought the NGX back in 2011 and still find new things about it.

Just owning these planes and sceneries is fun . Kind of a collector mentality.Even if I rarely use some of them. Since I just bought the 747-8 I'll have to wait until next month to get that a2a Bonanza I lust for. I may not fly it much as I'm a airliner fan but I just want to own it. Strange phenomina for psychologist to mull over. Compulsive add-on shoppers.

3 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

How is that "greedy"?  What if they simply just want to pay their mortgage, buy food, take the kids on vacation, pay medical bills, earn some extra cash?  You make it sound like working for money is a "bad thing"?  What's wrong with praise regardless of whether or not a product is free or payware?

Prices go down when volume goes up ... there are many ways to increase volume:

1.  Praise the developers
2.  Convert theft (piracy) into sales
3.  Encourage others to get involved in flight simulation
4.  Help others resolve issues and provide a friendly environment in which to grow, share ideas, enhance learning, find the "fun"

Cheers, Rob.

No, wanting to make money for your work is not greedy.  Let me rephrase: what if all the freeware developers decided to charge for their work?  There wouldn't be any need for the AVSIM library then I suppose.  How about some praise for all the freeware developers? 

Dave

3 hours ago, dave2013 said:

There wouldn't be any need for the AVSIM library then I suppose.

AVSIM library grows daily, no need to worry about that drying up.

You’ll find many payware devs started projects as freeware contributions spending 10-100 hrs on projects to get their feet wet with the SDK.  AVSIM library is a great place to start and get a feel on user interest.

Anyone can use the SDK and provide content so long as it’s not copyrighted and/or violates other legal requirements for file hosting.  I’d encourage you and others to do so ... over the years I’ve contributed P3D guide was about 60 hrs, I have numerous GIT files (for GoFlight) flies I’ve uploaded to Steve’s site ranging anywhere from 10-80 hrs of work per file set, many tutorial videos, etc.

The door is open for all, from the most basic to the advanced ... being a software engineer isn’t required ... anything from FXTool to make your own effects to textures for AG ... to you name (as simple or as complex).

 When someone decides they want get more serious about projects in the 100-1000+ hours then they can move into the payware arena.

There are no limits and the AVSIM library is a great place to start and grow or stay.

Cheers Rob

Used to fly the PMDG 737 in FSX and enjoyed learning all the procedures..

Now, I happily fly my personal airliner, the Cessna 421 in P3DV4 and go wherever I want for my $100 hamburger and fly with my multiplayer buddies each week..

Whatever floats your boat 

I have flawed logic.  I wouldn't dare spend 150 bucks on the PMDG 747 (a plane I've always wanted to buy).  But I'll spend lots on little purchases of general aviation (my go-to addons).

My happiest simming experience is flying the Realair Legacy Turbo with dual GTN's - typically offline exploring Orbx backcountry areas.  My second favorite simming is to fly on pilot edge (online paid service which I highly recommend).  And I'll typically fly Xplane 11 or P3D v4, and a wide variety of aircraft.

I love going low and fast.  I hear there is a company making the "Turbulence" addon for XP11.  If you're not familiar that's Mark Patey's ultra modded Lancair Legacy with a 5 bladed turboprop.  I think it does around 380 ktas at altitude... but still screams low level.  

watch it here lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiswjXlVV-0

 

Edited September 27, 20187 yr by ryanbatcund

3 hours ago, dave2013 said:

No, wanting to make money for your work is not greedy.  Let me rephrase: what if all the freeware developers decided to charge for their work?  There wouldn't be any need for the AVSIM library then I suppose.  How about some praise for all the freeware developers? 

Dave

Well, all I can tell you is that I am on of those guys that started by providing freeware.

My decision to move into payware was just to be able to satisfy the demand and needs of all my freeware customers since after releasing the first version I got an overwhelming amount of feedback and requests for improvement, the amount of work and time to do so has been beyond of what I ever imagined so it moved things to the next level.

Would I provide more freeware in the future? I think so.. As soon as I have some time available, I am a flying simulation user like everyone else here on Avsim and as such my time is limited and valuable as much as all of yours.

So will AVSIM and the community continue to grow? Absolutely!!, but not because of people like me, it will because of YOU and all the rest that comes here daily to share experiences and help new users to step into the ladder of flying simulation.

I am just lucky to be part of all these in the meantime.

My two cents,

Simbol 

6 hours ago, MarkW said:

The key to getting value in flight sim is for each user to figure out for themselves as quickly as possible what Addons they will use and only buy those while resisting the hype on products ( probably very good ones, I might add ) that for whatever reason don't fit your way of simming and resist buying them. It took me 10 years to figure this one out. 

This indeed.

If I buy one plane a year it's much already. I am totally nuts about the Majestic Q400 so I don't plan on buying any other plane soon which probably will result in no plane purchase this year at all.

I don't buy airport scenery anymore, only regions. To be more precise, I am only interested in TrueEarth regions for Aerofly FS 2 right now. The last airport I bought for P3D I bought a few years ago. I even don't have them installed anymore...! I did buy all Orbx airports for AFS2 this year but only because I wanted quality scenery for that sim. But now TrueEarth is here I couldn't care less about airport addons (since I spend most of my time flying over the scenery, not the airports). This also depends on how and where you fly, of course: I'm simply not into checking out every detail of an airport: I only need airports to take off from and to land on. I have to add though that I am very happy with the freeware Airports of Norway where I fly all the time.

Of course I do own a (quite short) list of P3D addons already that I wouldn't want to fly without but those are paid for already, sometimes years ago, and I keep on using them happily. 

So at this moment this hobby is pretty cheap for me. I just buy what I really, really want and nothing else and enjoy what I've got.

9 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Firstly, it seems to me that the OP's post was simply more praise of PMDG which I think it's safe to say we've all seen quite a lot of in these forums.  I own PMDG's 737 and 777 and they're great planes, but I don't feel the need to heap mountains of praise on the developers because I paid a lot of money for them and PMDG made a lot of money for their work.  What we need in this hobby is more competition which will bring down prices and give us better quality addons.

That is precisely what it is not.  Please understand the context of the original statements before firing shots in the dark.

Since the 747 expansion was released,  there has been a barrage of negativity about the price.  I was simply putting the price argument into context and listing my justification as to why I thought the price represented value for money  -  for ME.  It was a subjective opinion (which I also clearly stated)  and therefore would not apply to everyone.  PMDG was used as a convenient and very obvious example because of their pricing point.    It could have been FSL too but despite owning the Airbus I have't flown it much.

Now, is PMDG perfect with every aspect of their aircraft ? No. We know this. But unless you are actually type rated on an aircraft of that type, the bits which are missing, really are going to be way removed from your ability to comment or feel put out by.

I agree with your argument that competition is good but I'm not sure the niche flightsim market can support that much competition in the Tier 1 bracket.  Do you?

The cost of an add-on aircraft should not be a factor. Considering how much time we spend flying the so called study sims and the enjoyment we get from them, the cost can be measured in tenths of a cent per hour. I have a very select number of aircraft that I use in the sim and I'm gradually gravitating towards just one (or two at the most). They all are as realistic as possible and I enjoy trying to follow RL procedures. I will not be drawn into a dev vs dev argument since I believe that the top producers all do a stellar job. I do have my preference though.

As for the statement that the Bus is in command...wrong, wrong and wrong again. Yes, you cannot exceed certain limits imposed by the FBW but that is in Normal Law. You can turn off the automatics and hand-fly the aircraft to your heart's content but that is not what these airliners are supposed to do. They are meant to transport people / goods from point A to point B in the safest possible manner and, considering the huge increase in traffic volume these past years, automation is simply a tool to lighten the pilots' workload and enhance safety.

Back to cost of ownership. I research before I buy and consider carefully how much time I will be spending in a particular flight deck. If the answer is "more than twice a week" I will dent the credit card 😎 I have spent a lot over the years and had a large number of aircraft (mainly during the FS9 days) that were sitting around doing nothing but gathering cobwebs and dust. I corrected that, up to a point, in FSX and when I switch to P3D I will be even stricter about my purchases. As a matter of fact I am seriously considering just a single aircraft family for use in P3D (and keeping the old computer with my current FSX setup - however long it lasts hardware-wise - ) for the rest of my flying.

This is a great time to be a flight simmer.

Cheers!

The interesting aspect of a flight simulator is that we can do things "by the book", or we can deviate from that to our heart's content. However, accurate simulation of an aircraft's capabilities and flight modelling is essential for both options.

As noted above its very much what you make of it.  Devs have to produce something that is viable for someone just wanting a cheap flight simulator.  You know basic textures plenty of free aircraft for messing around.   But they leave it open for others to build upon that.   

DCS is very much the same.  Caucus map and several aircraft are all free.  plenty for some people.  But if you want highly detailed aircraft or map then that comes with a price tag.  

Your paying for devs time and effort.  And in the case of PMDG and some other devs you are paying for licenses with the aircraft manufacturer, support, etc.  

And while people cry about paying for support, this forum is full of evidence that there is literally thousands of pc rig configurations they have to contend with.  Not to mention playing nice with other addons or software.

 

9 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

I hear there is a company making the "Turbulence" addon for XP11.  If you're not familiar that's Mark Patey's

I suspect it's too much to hope for that they will then make his absolutely insane Wilga Draco. 😉

 

As for the price of simming... I suspect it's never been cheaper. PMDG's 747v3 is what, $140? You can easily drop that on one meal at a decent restaurant these days. The 747 will give you enjoyment long after that restaurant meal is in the sewer. Yes, it's expensive, but it's also a durable good (or at least as durable as software gets).

The main downside to simming today is that there really aren't any *good* affordable controllers anymore. I bought my Saitek X45 for $100. To get a stick today and not step down in quality or functionality would cost me 4 times that at least today, especially since Saitek went downhill in a big way with subsequent controllers.

But as far as the software itself goes, after you factor in inflation, we used to pay at least this much to sim in the old days.

 

I was once one of those freeware guys (my biggest project was the FS9/FSX Tinmouse 737), and when it started becoming obvious how much time and effort would be needed to keep a quality add-on current and relevant across future generations of an evolving sim platform, I considered the possibility of devoting a LOT more time to my projects and doing it as a vocation, and ultimately decided instead to cease developing rather than subject myself to the sort of abuse that regularly gets dished out to even the best developers (and even to the freeware folks).  To do it right entails a huge time commitment, not only for the development and testing, but for customer support and marketing.  The first time you take money for your work, your clientele becomes legitimately entitled to some of your attentions, and a very loud and unreasonable minority also feels entitled to your time and energy far beyond that which you ever offered in the first place.  I dare say that there are a fair number of people out there that could build some really cool things for our simulated world but never will because they are not about to make themselves targets in an online shooting gallery rife with anonymous idiots full of internet courage.  I fully understand that sentiment.

Like any hobby, you can dabble in simming, or go whole-hog into it, and the price tag differential is the same.  You can play a $25 round of golf on a city course with a set of clubs you found for $50 at a garage sale, or you can spend $7000 to fly to St Andrews for a week with your $4000 set of Pings or Calloways.  Or you can play a city course with a coveted $450 Ping driver in the bag together with your garage sale clubs...  It costs whatever it's worth...to you.  Calloways are too expensive?  Then don't buy them.  Same goes for a PMDG or FSL plane, or the next version of P3D or XPlane.  There's a whole spectrum of options across a wide range of prices.  What you buy is up to you.  Free market economics will keep things from getting out of control, because if the day comes when not enough people will pay the asking price for a pricey software product, either the price comes down or a competitor moves in.  You want a top-tier product, but can't afford it?  Well, I want a 488 GTB, too, but I don't get on the car forums and bad-mouth Ferrari at every opportunity for charging more than I would be willing to pay for one.

I think we're in a pretty good place...options abound for pretty much everyone, from a $7 Steam sale copy of FSX-SE running on a modest off-the-shelf PC to the $100,000 hardware sim with wraparound screen and 4K projector displays.  If you think it costs more than it's worth to you, take up another hobby.  Whatever that is, you'll probably discover that there are expensive top-tier choices to lust for there as well...like a $900 Orvis Helios graphite fly rod, or a $2800 Gibson Les Paul, or a $3000 15" Powermatic bandsaw, or a $15,000 Bernina 880 Plus sewing machine, or a $100,000 Ranger Z521 bass boat, or...

Regards