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ckyliu

Coverage outside USA

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I note in the USA you get taxyways and airport layouts, superimposed charts, SIDs and STARs on the GTN750. Do you still get these functions outside the USA with the bundled nav data? Most of my IFR flying is in Western Europe.

Also, I understand they've added fields outside the USA that are unlicensed or have shorter runways, this would very useful for my VFR flying in the UK.

Edited by ckyliu

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Hi,

It is rather easy to figure out: either you already have our GTN and you just configure it to use the 'International' DB and see, or, you download and install the Garmin GTN trainer then run it, select 'international' (Jepp) and see.

One thing for sure: charts (overlays or not) included in the trainer are USA only, and the latest(s) trainers DB removed shorter runways. NB: although not a real runway on the map with all the info, the trainer 6.50.x now permit designing any user waypoint as an airport, with all the benefits of an airport in regard to navigation, if I'm not mistaken this includes visual approach assistance.

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Fellow users, correct me if I am wrong.  Is 1513 the one that is worldwide with the shorter runways. and I believe also worked with both the GNS and GTN?  If so I believe I have it, but you would need to revert to the Garmin GTN Trainer that was current at that time.  Newer versions of the Garmin GTN Trainer use a different nav data format.  So it is not just a database version issue.

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23 minutes ago, fppilot said:

Newer versions of the Garmin GTN Trainer use a different nav data format.  So it is not just a database version issue.

I think the newer trainer can still read the older DB, at least, the Jepp DB if not the Garmin DB.

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37 minutes ago, RXP said:

I think the newer trainer can still read the older DB, at least, the Jepp DB

Pretty sure that's right. My real regional database from Jepp contains 2 versions of the DB, the "newer" GTN one and the older one which can also be read by the GNS. I think I read somewhere ages ago that it is provided for backward compatibility in case users have not updated their GTN software. The updates are not compulsory. The system "knows" which one to use.

46374824351_d6086ca397_b.jpg

 

Edited by DavidP
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44 minutes ago, RXP said:

I think the newer trainer can still read the older DB, at least, the Jepp DB if not the Garmin DB.

So perhaps I had it backwards. Probably NOT the case that the updated GTN Trainer cannot read the old format, but instead that the aging GNS Trainer cannot read the new format.

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Maybe I have it backwards, but the 1513 database and the removal of shorter runways after that date applies to the GNS, as best I know.. not GTN.  :unsure:

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36 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

Maybe I have it backwards, but the 1513 database and the removal of shorter runways after that date applies to the GNS, as best I know.. not GTN.  :unsure:

Agree. We both actually say the same thing in regard to GNS.  The newer databases lack the shorter runway airports and those are not compatible with the older GNS gauges. 

So Bert, are you saying that the more up-to-date databases for the GTN still include shorter runways?

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38 minutes ago, fppilot said:

Agree. We both actually say the same thing in regard to GNS.  The newer databases lack the shorter runway airports and those are not compatible with the older GNS gauges. 

So Bert, are you saying that the more up-to-date databases for the GTN still include shorter runways?

That is indeed what I am saying..

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@Bert Pieke
So I would be "safe" with the latest worldwide GTN trainer database? In terms of it having shorter runways still.

And just because my GNS has coverage, it doesn't follow that a GTN would as they use a different database?

And final point, i think Jean-Luc said there are no SIDs or STAR in it for Europe?

Edited by ckyliu

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1 hour ago, ckyliu said:

i think Jean-Luc said there are no SIDs or STAR in it for Europe? 

I'm wondering where I could have said such things!

What I've probably said though is that we've enabled the whole SBAS systems in our GNS V2, including EGNOS for Europe! See "Complete SBAS Support" on our website: http://reality-xp.com/index2.html#sbas_support

 

Nevertheless, you might want to review my message here:
https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/545258-which-database-ships-on-430/?tab=comments#comment-3930279

And read my suggestions here too:
https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/546848-rxp-gns-530w430w-v2-database-update/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-3941914

 

Edited by RXP

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1 hour ago, ckyliu said:

@Bert Pieke
So I would be "safe" with the latest worldwide GTN trainer database? In terms of it having shorter runways still.

And just because my GNS has coverage, it doesn't follow that a GTN would as they use a different database?

 

If in doubt, download the GTN Trainer and check it out..

Yes, the GNS and GTN databases are different.

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17 hours ago, fppilot said:

Great. So Ted? Would that help you get to your destination?

I appreciate the feedback Frank but I think I am still as confused as everyone else. :biggrin:

I've put off buying any addon Garmins due to this. My intended use is to fly small GA aircraft into small ORBX airports, hence the interest in the small airport database. According to Bert the latest GTNs do include the small airport database so that just leaves the GNSs. It sounds like you can downgrade the GNS software to an earlier version and then install the earlier small airport database into the GNS. Is this correct?

I will try Bert's suggestion of downloading the GTN and GNS trainers to view the databases.

Thanks,

Ted

 

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15 minutes ago, Ted Striker said:

t sounds like you can downgrade the GNS software to an earlier version and then install the earlier small airport database into the GNS. Is this correct?

Not exactly. This is difficult to explain because we each have a way of saying things, and likewise we each have our way of reading or listening.

The Garmin GNS trainer used by the RXP GNS 430v2 and 530v2 is able to use that last database from the end of 2015 that was common to both the GNS and the GTN.  It was numbered 1513, was worldwide, and included the smaller runways.  What the GNS trainer can no longer do is access the newer updates for the GTN database. It is not a common database any longer. Garmin changed the GTN format and it is the GNS that cannot read that newer format.  Garmin appears to now have split GNS database updates into regions and eliminated the shorter airstrips.

I am using the Garmin 1513 database version with the GNS but now there appears no way to update the GNS database except with regional  databases, and I believe those lack the smaller strips you are seeking.  My only experience was with a mid 2017 GNS update for USA only.  I believe it may have lacked Canadian airports, and I know it lacked Caribbean airports. 

So for the GNS I went back to 1513 and have stayed there.  You can do that as well and you should have all of the smaller strip approaches published prior to the end of 2015.

What I believe has happened real world is that with the emergence of RNAV/GPS/LPV/LNAV technology, the number of published instrument approaches has exploded. Almost every small airport in the US now has RNAV or GPS approaches.  I believe the size of the worldwide.bin database more than doubled in size from say 2012 to 2016.  I am not sure how much memory the older GNS gauges can use in real life.  I can only guess that may be the reason for splitting and dumming down the databases - to reduce the size.  That is only a guess.

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38 minutes ago, fppilot said:

That is only a guess.

From reading on the subject that I have done, I believe you would be quite correct.

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38 minutes ago, fppilot said:

You can do that as well and you should have all of the smaller strip approaches published prior to the end of 2015.

Thanks for the thorough explanation Frank. This is what I was trying to figure out. If I understand you correctly I can purchase a new RXP GNS 430 and 530 and I will be able to install database 1513 and have the data for the smaller airports. I find it hard to believe that Garmin would have just removed this small airport data for real world pilots so I assume that this just applies to their trainers.

Ted

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For the GTN750 I downloaded the latest GTN PC Trainer 6.50.1 from Garmin as Bert suggested (and it's massive, 4 GB when installed, took an age to download at 10 Mbps) which includes navigation database 1803 29-Mar-18 (I have no idea what trainer version RXP is compatible with) and safetaxi 18S1.

I also ran my RXP GNS530v2 in P3D, which has aviation database 22-Oct-2009.

  • Both seem to contain small UK licensed aerodromes (EGNF with a 530m/1800ft grass strip) and SIDs/STARs (I used EGNX for this).
  • Both contain decent coverage of major national ground routes (A roads, motorways, rivers and railways), in addition to naming settlements and inland bodies of water.
  • Neither had unlicensed fields (EGCA? Coal Aston with a 600m/1969ft grass strip).
  • Taxyways (both EGNF and EGNX), obstacles and VRP only appeared on the GTN.

Also, the GTN is a helluva lot nicer than the GNS! Things are a lot clearer on it with a much better use of colour. As expected being a touchscreen it's much quicker to navigate and input data. Think I need to buy the GTN! Hope this information helps others.

Edited by ckyliu

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Happy you have it figured out!

If you need a newer WW GNS database (1513), contact me via PM with your email address..

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2 hours ago, Ted Striker said:

Thanks for the thorough explanation Frank. This is what I was trying to figure out. If I understand you correctly I can purchase a new RXP GNS 430 and 530 and I will be able to install database 1513 and have the data for the smaller airports. I find it hard to believe that Garmin would have just removed this small airport data for real world pilots so I assume that this just applies to their trainers.

Ted

Nope, this is true for real world pilots as well.  Most of whom have no need for a WW database..

For that, the regional GNS databases DO include the smaller runways.

Just not the GNS WW database (due to size limitations)

Edited by Bert Pieke
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2 hours ago, Ted Striker said:

Thanks for the thorough explanation Frank. This is what I was trying to figure out. If I understand you correctly I can purchase a new RXP GNS 430 and 530 and I will be able to install database 1513 and have the data for the smaller airports. I find it hard to believe that Garmin would have just removed this small airport data for real world pilots so I assume that this just applies to their trainers.

Ted

Ted, now you appear to be putting words in my mouth based on some agenda. If you want to fly into small airports in Orbx provided scenery i recommend you listen to those who do so more often than I do.  I believe Bert with his involvement with the Avsim Round the World Race Forum group flies into such Orbx airports more often than I during their weekly activities. So I defer to him. You should check it out if that is where you fly.

Whatever differences you may have with Garmin's business decisions is not a topic for my discussions.  The RXP team is in my opinion doing a wonderful job providing us with the best that is available with the interfaces available from Garmin and the independent innovation they are coming up with.

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Quote

I find it hard to believe that Garmin would have just removed this small airport data for real world pilots

While I have no statistics to verify it, I would suggest that the vast majority of real world users of these Garmin units would only require regional databases. Anyone flying privately and internationally would no doubt have the means to be using aircraft well beyond most of our budgets, and would therefore have the means for more expensive database solutions.

Remember, this is a real world application - real owners use this to practice on. We are lucky that it has been adapted for the use of simmers at home.

Edited by DavidP
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17 hours ago, Ted Striker said:

I find it hard to believe

Hi Ted,

This is why you might want to read official Garmin service bulletins instead. Some examples:

1) You can get the knowledge straight from the source, it is publicly accessible:

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviationalerts/

2) About the runway exclusions:

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviationalerts/service-advisory-1846-worldwide-navigation-database/

ISSUE:

The number of approaches and volume of data in the Worldwide Navigation Database will soon exceed the limits of the database.

RESOLUTION:

Beginning with Cycle 1810 (effective September 13, 2018):

Garmin will begin restricting the number of airports included in the Worldwide Navigation Database, based on the length of the longest runway. Heliports and Airports that do not contain a runway of greater than 5000 feet will be excluded from the Worldwide Navigation Database. All associated data with excluded airports (communication frequencies, approaches, runways, etc.) will also be excluded.

Beginning with Cycle 1910 (effective September 12, 2019):

Garmin will discontinue the Worldwide Navigation Database for the affected products listed above. Other regionalized versions of the navigation database will remain available and will have no restriction on airports within the coverage area.

 

3) Notice about among other things, a wrong CDI scale deviation on some approaches:

https://avdb.garmin.com/docs/garmin_data_exclusions.pdf

CDI (Course Deviation Indicator)/HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator) scaling on a limited number of LNAV/VNAV, and LNAV+V approaches is incorrect. LPV approaches and LNAV approaches without advisory (+V) vertical guidance are not affected.
Please see the corresponding Garmin Service Advisory (SA1047) for additional information:
https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviationalerts/service-advisory-1047-rev-a-lnavvnav-and-lnavv-full-scale-deflection/


 

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16 hours ago, ckyliu said:

I have no idea what trainer version RXP is compatible with

Hi, you may find this information at least on our website main page:

End of Year Sale!
30% OFF for all editions of GTN 750/650
Now compatible with the latest Garmin GTN Trainer 6.50!
With Garmin / Jeppesen Aviation, Obstacles and Safetaxi® Databases cycle 1803

 

NB: this includes 6.50.1 too.

Edited by RXP
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