If 'that' wasn't sustainable then it wouldn't work and spiral to nothing eventually or sooner rather than later. So it must be do-able on both sides. The sales outlets have a lot of work to do to keep up and support small developers. Support them.

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

You'll get far better value for money by buying a PBR-enabled Manchester where we had 158 days with rain last year (a record low) and 2012 when we had 203.

Dublin first, please! 😉

Pete

 

9 minutes ago, Pete Dowson said:

Dublin first, please! 😉

Pete

 

The price of wellies is good there. 🤓

8 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

What they're doing is penalising those customers who bought the earlier product as they now have to pay more for the same product.

Which is another way of saying "those customers who bought the earlier product got X-more years of use out of it than the current buyers ever will."

You paid a "premium" in order to have access to the product much earlier than the people who are buying it now.

 

Put another way, if you buy a car with crank-up windows, and then next year the manufacturer replaces them with power windows but charges the same price for the car, you can't just drive to the dealership and expect them to install the power windows into your car, even though the people who buy now are getting them for the same price you got your manual windows.

 

1 hour ago, SteveW said:

If 'that' wasn't sustainable then it wouldn't work and spiral to nothing eventually or sooner rather than later. So it must be do-able on both sides. The sales outlets have a lot of work to do to keep up and support small developers. Support them.

I've bought loads from SimMarket so I have a clear conscience. But something doesn't add up with the €5 per sale thing if the developer gets peanuts. I don't know how much the PBR software costs but it won't be cheap.

34 minutes ago, Pete Dowson said:

Dublin first, please! 😉

Pete

I believe you get a free pair of wellies with the new Dublin! 😁

3 minutes ago, eslader said:

Which is another way of saying "those customers who bought the earlier product got X-more years of use out of it than the current buyers ever will."

You paid a "premium" in order to have access to the product much earlier than the people who are buying it now.

 

Put another way, if you buy a car with crank-up windows, and then next year the manufacturer replaces them with power windows but charges the same price for the car, you can't just drive to the dealership and expect them to install the power windows into your car, even though the people who buy now are getting them for the same price you got your manual windows.

 

You will have seen my replies to those who put an argument similar to yours. Software is a totally different situation to hardware.

And considering the majority of the 'upgrade' cost goes to SimMarket and not the developer all your doing is lining their pockets and not helping the developer.

1 minute ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Software is a totally different situation to hardware.

That's a common argument from software pirates who use it to explain why pirating software isn't stealing. I don't think it's any more true when you use it here than when thieves use it to justify their larceny.

I get where the argument comes from, but it doesn't hold water. Software is intellectual property, and if you derive a benefit from it, the people who created it deserve to get paid for their efforts. Just because the physical act of copying it from one computer to yours doesn't cost anything doesn't mean that the physical act of creating it in the first place didn't cost anything.

You got to use the first version of this software. If you want to continue using it for free, you certainly can. If you want the upgraded version of it, you'll need to pay. Your payment today supports the development time that went into creating the new version. Because you were kind enough to support the development time that went into the old version, you don't have to support the new version to the degree that people who did not buy the old version do.

It works the same with other software, too. If Microsoft comes out with a new version of Word, I have to pay to upgrade to it. I can choose to keep using the old version if I want, but if I want whatever new features are in it, I have to pay. Generally, I have to pay less than the guy who's buying it for the first time, and also generally that guy is paying roughly what I paid for my version 2 years ago. In essence, you got two separate pieces of intellectual property for just slightly over the price of one.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, eslader said:

That's a common argument from software pirates who use it to explain why pirating software isn't stealing. I don't think it's any more true when you use it here than when thieves use it to justify their larceny.

I get where the argument comes from, but it doesn't hold water. Software is intellectual property, and if you derive a benefit from it, the people who created it deserve to get paid for their efforts. Just because the physical act of copying it from one computer to yours doesn't cost anything doesn't mean that the physical act of creating it in the first place didn't cost anything.

You got to use the first version of this software. If you want to continue using it for free, you certainly can. If you want the upgraded version of it, you'll need to pay. Your payment today supports the development time that went into creating the new version. Because you were kind enough to support the development time that went into the old version, you don't have to support the new version to the degree that people who did not buy the old version do.

It works the same with other software, too. If Microsoft comes out with a new version of Word, I have to pay to upgrade to it. I can choose to keep using the old version if I want, but if I want whatever new features are in it, I have to pay. Generally, I have to pay less than the guy who's buying it for the first time, and also generally that guy is paying roughly what I paid for my version 2 years ago. In essence, you got two separate pieces of intellectual property for just slightly over the price of one.

Please desist from mentioning piracy. Nothing to do with this topic.

I'm not asking you to accept my view. It's an opinion and I stick by it. And perhaps you missed the posts where it appears the developer gets very little from the updated version for previous customers because SimMarket take nearly all of it.

I didn't get to use the first release of this software because I have the LatinVFR version of LEBL.

I have Office 2010 and am perfectly happy with it. If Idecide to buy the updated version I know my money goes to Microsoft, not the company hosting the sale.

Adding PBR (primarily rain effects) to an airport that has less than 90 daysof rain a year was not a wise decision. Why didn't they choose a more appropriate airport? That's a rhetorical question.

6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Please desist from mentioning piracy. Nothing to do with this topic.

I'm not asking you to accept my view. It's an opinion and I stick by it. And perhaps you missed the posts where it appears the developer gets very little from the updated version for previous customers because SimMarket take nearly all of it.

I didn't get to use the first release of this software because I have the LatinVFR version of LEBL.

I have Office 2010 and am perfectly happy with it. If Idecide to buy the updated version I know my money goes to Microsoft, not the company hosting the sale.

Adding PBR (primarily rain effects) to an airport that has less than 90 daysof rain a year was not a wise decision. Why didn't they choose a more appropriate airport? That's a rhetorical question.

Ray you need to work on your letter spacing.  It’s very annoying to read. 😉

2 minutes ago, mpw8679 said:

Ray you need to work on your letter spacing.  It’s very annoying to read. 😉

?????????

Not sure if it was mentioned But Imagine Sim and their great WSSS scenery was updated to PBR free of charge. So makes one wonder why a different developer cannot do the same if the point of all that extra work is used. The WSSS scenery is definitely a bigger project. I did not think the original poster was complaining TBH. 

I for one would pay for upgrades like i did for Fly Tampa CYUL scenery. Small price for terrific improvements above and beyond PBR. 

Will L.

36 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Please desist from mentioning piracy. Nothing to do with this topic.

Sure it does. You're both using the same argument. Their invalid argument doesn't become valid just because you aren't a crook. 🙂

 

37 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

And perhaps you missed the posts where it appears the developer gets very little from the updated version for previous customers because SimMarket take nearly all of it.

I saw them, but I find it irrelevant. That's between the developer and SimMarket. If the developer doesn't like SimMarket taking most of the money, they're free to sell it via some other vendor, or eliminate the vendors altogether and sell it on their website. The developer making the choice to let SimMarket take what we consider to be too much off the top has nothing to do with the morality of charging money for the product in the first place.

 

39 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Adding PBR (primarily rain effects) to an airport that has less than 90 daysof rain a year was not a wise decision. Why didn't they choose a more appropriate airport? That's a rhetorical question.

No argument from me there! I, personally, wouldn't see the need to spend the money to upgrade the product. Sounds like you're of the same mind. If others do find it valuable, that's up to them, but it's not immoral or unjust to charge for work. It's up to the consumer to determine whether the work was valuable enough to pay for.

 

3 minutes ago, eslader said:

Sure it does. You're both using the same argument. Their invalid argument doesn't become valid just because you aren't a crook. 🙂

I saw them, but I find it irrelevant. That's between the developer and SimMarket. If the developer doesn't like SimMarket taking most of the money, they're free to sell it via some other vendor, or eliminate the vendors altogether and sell it on their website. The developer making the choice to let SimMarket take what we consider to be too much off the top has nothing to do with the morality of charging money for the product in the first place.

No argument from me there! I, personally, wouldn't see the need to spend the money to upgrade the product. Sounds like you're of the same mind. If others do find it valuable, that's up to them, but it's not immoral or unjust to charge for work. It's up to the consumer to determine whether the work was valuable enough to pay for.

Going back to your earlier comment you said this... " Put another way, if you buy a car with crank-up windows, and then next year the manufacturer replaces them with power windows but charges the same price for the car, you can't just drive to the dealership and expect them to install the power windows into your car, even though the people who buy now are getting them for the same price you got your manual windows. "

Do you really believe the price wouldn't go up with new power winoows? Of course it would because there's a lot more expense involved.

We don't know who the developer is. You would think JustSim are big enough to be able to handle sales themselves without involving SimMarket. But I'm just guessing as you are. Neither of us knows what goes on behind the scenes between developer and the seller.

With two other versions of LEBL available there is pressure not to raise the price whcih is probably why they kept the PBR price the same as the non-PBR version.

I've been involved in FS long enough to have seen really significant improvements with new ground textures, different cloud types and Ai aircraft to name but three. PBR doesn't get close I'm afraid. The older I get the harder it is to impress me.

Guys, for the second time PBR is about Physical Base Rendering nothing to do with rain, the rain effects are as a result of implementing PBR.

It doesn't matter were the airport is located, it could be in a top of a hill or in the middle of desert, if they surface is wet it shows.

PBR is about how the light should react against an object, ie: leader, concrete, glass, plastic, metal, etc.

Let's not confuse this any more.

Regards 

Simbol 

19 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I've been involved in FS long enough to have seen really significant improvements with new ground textures, different cloud types and Ai aircraft to name but three. PBR doesn't get close I'm afraid. The older I get the harder it is to impress me. 

Maybe because you don't fully understand the importance of this, specially for our simulators.

Here is a video explaining it:

And basically every movie special effects you are seeing (CGI) implements PBR to make everything looks as real as possible (in comparison how human eye perceives light reflection on objects), from cartoon movies to  more advanced effects as shown in Stars Wars, games of thrones, etc.

Having Lockheed Martin pushing their platform for PBR is a big important event as it is driving the platform to the next level, and if it wasn't for changes / events like this, we would still have a simulator looking like FS95..

Regards 

Simbol