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Ray Proudfoot

JustSim Barcelona v4.4 pricing policy

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JustSim have had a version of Barcelona available for P3D v4 available for some time for the price of €23.40.

They have now announced an updated version that includes PBR and some other additions. The price of this version is still €23.40 suggesting the extra work has not caused the price to increase.

However, if you bought their earlier version you will be charged €6.60 for the upgrade. I could understand this charge if the price of v2 was also increased but it hasn't. It remains the same price.

What they're doing is penalising those customers who bought the earlier product as they now have to pay more for the same product. New customers are not penalised as they get the same as the original customers for a lesser price.

Why aren't they charging extra for v2 so that those who bought v1 can upgrade and still get it cheaper than v2 customers? They're penalising loyal customers which seems bizarre.

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Hi Ray,

I disagree with this analogy, if you recall I explained on a different topic how complicated and difficult it is to add PBR, etc.to any content.

In short the PBR addition makes it a total new product (this is a new airport), so this is a new airport for €23.40 and if you were a "loyal customer" who bought the new version they are giving you the opportunity to acquire a whole new product for €6.60 which is a 71% discount.

Nobody here is being penalised, all the contrary.

my 2 cents,

Simbol

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Posted (edited)

Doesn't seem unfair to me, you paid for the work put in to the version 1 product and have presumably enjoyed it for some time. Now you're paying a modest upgrade fee for the additional work it took to make version 2.

Why should people who buy version 2 without having owned the old version pay for work that has been replaced and they won't see the benefit of? I presume v1 works within P3Dv4 albeit without the dynamic lighting and other improvements so it's not money you have to spend to use the product anyway. Of course some developers have provided P3D ports and minor upgrades for free (UK2000 is a prime example, but even they charge an upgrade fee for a new version).

Given the kit and addons you have, I can't see €6.60 causing you any issues anyway! I get it that you're posting on principle and had it been a full price repurchase I'd agree with you, but the upgrade charge seems fair to me unless v1 has only been available for a very short time before v2 appeared. Especially when you consider many products just force a complete repurchase for a basic port (A2A, CS, FS2Crew, HiFi ,PMDG etc)

Edited by ckyliu
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Difficult discussion, as nobody is forced to upgrade. Means: if you bought your scenery before the PBR upgrade was available, you can still use it as it is. Compare it to other products and you will see that it is always like this.

However, what I really do NOT like with JustSim: their initial releases are always a little bit rushed. Means: several stuff included in the update NOT linked to PBR, I would expect to have for free. An adjusted AFCAD, improved layout, adjusted buildings etc. While I can easily understand that we have to pay for the PBR related stuff, I equally don't agree on the other upgraded points.

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5 minutes ago, simbol said:

Hi Ray,

I disagree with this analogy, if you recall I explained on a different topic how complicated and difficult it is to add PBR, etc.to any content.

In short the PBR addition makes it a total new product (this is a new airport), so this is a new airport for €23.40 and if you were a "loyal customer" who bought the new version they are giving you the opportunity to acquire a whole new product for €6.60 which is a 71% discount.

Nobody here is being penalised, all the contrary.

my 2 cents,

Simbol

So if it’s difficult to add PBR the price should reflect that. It doesn’t for new customers which is my point. They’re using the profit from v1 customers to subsidise the price of v2. Somewhat like new customers for car insurance get lower prices than those who have been with that company for years.

3 minutes ago, ckyliu said:

Doesn't seem unfair to me, you paid for the work put in to the version 1 product and have presumably enjoyed it for some time. Now you're paying a modest upgrade fee for the additional work it took to make version 2. Why should people who buy version 2 without having owned the old version pay for work that has been replaced and they won't see the benefit of? I presume v1 works within P3Dv4 albeit without the dynamic lighting and other improvements so it's not money you have to spend to use the product anyway. Of course some developers have provided P3D ports and minor upgrades for free (UK2000 is a prime example, but even they charge an upgrade fee for a new version).

See my point above. This is becoming a trend and many people will be annoyed by it. Looking down the list of “improvements” many are just minor making it look like a far superior version to the original which it isn’t.

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Posted (edited)

Ray,

I am sorry but, if what you are saying is that we cannot use our profits from sales to build new products and continue delivering new content then the business model will colapse as you would never see any new products coming along. Unless we start charging before starting the product, would that be fair? perhaps this is what the community wants? all new add-on's to be crowdfunded before starting?

They build a new airport on the basis that all PBR content has to be rebuild, they want to charge €6.60 to current customers which is a super good deal, I don't see the problem here.

They are also staying in the market by offering the new airport at €23.40, if they were charging €40 nobody would buy it as it would be far to expensive, and many people would be here complaining how expensive it is.

People cannot work for free, forget it.. if this is the expectation then perhaps we all developers should just forget about it and retreat back to our full time jobs.

Regards,
Simbol

Edited by simbol
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Simbol,

I can see we’re not going to agree on this. You’re looking at this through the eyes of the seller, me as a customer.

I’m not suggesting the price should be raised to €40 or anything like it. I don’t know why you came up with such an inflated price.

But a modest increase over v1 for the additional work doesn’t seem unreasonable. Say €6.60. That way, everyone pays the same price. I don’t see the problem.

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Posted (edited)

People have to stop playing the  victim every time a developer announces an upgrade and charges a small fee.   The process and time investment of developing PBR specific airports has already been very well explained by @Simbol and others in other posts about the same JustSim pricing policy.  

Again, if you do not feel that you want or need PBR, then you do not have to pay EUR 6.   This is not a penalty on existing owners.  It is an optional upgrade fee if you feel the PBR adds enough value to your experience.

 

Edited by ErichB
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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, AnkH said:

Difficult discussion, as nobody is forced to upgrade. Means: if you bought your scenery before the PBR upgrade was available, you can still use it as it is. Compare it to other products and you will see that it is always like this.

However, what I really do NOT like with JustSim: their initial releases are always a little bit rushed. Means: several stuff included in the update NOT linked to PBR, I would expect to have for free. An adjusted AFCAD, improved layout, adjusted buildings etc. While I can easily understand that we have to pay for the PBR related stuff, I equally don't agree on the other upgraded points.

I get that. But in the long run it's fair to pay for more work done, whatever it is, if we already agree to purchase something at the point of development for the price asked.

 

In my opinion, the idea that anyone can complain about having to spend just a few pounds on a software upgrade and yet spend several thousands on hardware, beggars belief. Anything we get in the flight sim arena is most likely the most costly to produce and yet the best value. It's costly because of the experience and capacity of the developers required is the best in class and the subject matter is complicated and time consuming. We could be paying a lot more for it. Best keep quiet while the going is good.

Edited by SteveW
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21 minutes ago, simbol said:

They build a new airport on the basis that all PBR content has to be rebuild, they want to charge €6.60 to current customers which is a super good deal, I don't see the problem here.

Regards,
Simbol

I agree completely.

I got the v2.0 upgrade and it cost me 5.50 euro, and it is well worth it in my opinion.

I'm more than happy to support them with the small upgrade fees for updating these scenery's with PBR.

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Just now, SteveW said:

I get that. But in the long run it's fair to pay for more work done,

But that is my point. v4.4 costs no more than the previous non-PBR version. If it has taken so much effort to build a new version that should be reflected in the price. So why hasn’t the price been increased?

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6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Simbol,

I can see we’re not going to agree on this. You’re looking at this through the eyes of the seller, me as a customer.

I’m not suggesting the price should be raised to €40 or anything like it. I don’t know why you came up with such an inflated price.

But a modest increase over v1 for the additional work doesn’t seem unreasonable. Say €6.60. That way, everyone pays the same price. I don’t see the problem.

Well people don't have to always agree, this is the point of expressing views on moderated forums, etc.

So what you are saying is that the new product should be €30 to justify the upgrade price for their "loyal customers"? that doesn't make sense either.

And in your view, if I release a product called product ABC, I provide maintenance, support, minor updates, etc. and then a year later I produce an updated version ABC V2 which is required to be in line with Prepard3D version X, which required hundreds and hundreds of hours of work, I should provide this for free? or shall I charge for my efforts to keep providing "new" and "current" customers with a product that is up to speed with new features and technologies available?

Maybe the fault here by Justsim was from marketing point of view, they should have called Barcelona V2 ( given the amount of work to build PBR) and move on with the same price strategy.

Regards,
Simbol

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

But that is my point. v4.4 costs no more than the previous non-PBR version. If it has taken so much effort to build a new version that should be reflected in the price. So why hasn’t the price been increased?

Pricing policy does not need to follow an exact mathematical formula.  It isn't an exact science.   It only needs to ensure the sustainability of continued development and added value to existing products where needed - or desired.

Edited by ErichB
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2 minutes ago, simbol said:

And in your view, if I release a product called product ABC, I provide maintenance, support, minor updates, etc. and then a year later I produce an updated version ABC V2 which is required to be in line with Prepard3D version X, which required hundreds and hundreds of hours of work, I should provide this for free? or shall I charge for my efforts to keep providing "new" and "current" customers with a product that is up to speed with new features and technologies available?


Regards,
Simbol

But don’t you see that by charging the same price for v2 as they did for v1 you aren’t getting paid for your efforts. Imagine if no one who bought v1 paid the charge for v2. You have put in all that work and not received any more for it than the original.

Does adding PBR really take hundreds of hours too? Seems doubtful.

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16 minutes ago, SteveW said:

In my opinion, the idea that anyone can complain about having to spend just a few pounds on a software upgrade and yet spend several thousands on hardware, beggars belief. 

You always have to get personal don’t you? 😠

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8 minutes ago, ErichB said:

Pricing policy does not need to follow an exact mathematical formula.  It isn't an exact science.   It only needs to ensure the sustainability of continued development and added value to existing products where needed - or desired.

Sorry Erich but that sounds like marketing gobbledegook.

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1 minute ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Does adding PBR really take hundreds of hours too? Seems doubtful.

It does, I explained this before you didn't read it? please read my comments here where I show an overview of the process:

 

3 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

But don’t you see that by charging the same price for v2 as they did for v1 you aren’t getting paid for your efforts. Imagine if no one who bought v1 paid the charge for v2. You have put in all that work and not received any more for it than the original

That is the risk of the business, and why we try to put a reasonable upgrade price so our current customers stay with us. And Increasing the price would not ensure more sales either and it could drive new customers away, in hence why your mathematical equation is not being applied or used by developers, sometimes you have to charge less to earn more as more copies sold will generate you a much bigger profit as long term sales have to be also considered, if you deliver good results.. people will find you online over a period of time and buy the product.

You have to stay competitive Ray despite of how much work you do, and the Flying sim world is a very hard business, there is a reason why so many developers do this only as part time.

Regards,
Simbol

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Sorry Erich but that sounds like marketing gobbledegook.

It's got nothing to do with marketing Ray.  Pricing policy has to cover cost and provide income.

I would rather pay EUR6 to a developer for an upgrade knowing that he'll continue to provide upgrades for each substantial version of P3D rather than what has happened in some cases where we are stuck with products designed for P3D v 2 or v 3  with no upgrades since.

Heaven forbid,  I could lose my job tomorrow and then also feel that EUR 6 for an upgrade might not quite be appropriate for me.  But I wouldn't deny the developer an income for adding value to his product.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

You always have to get personal don’t you? 😠

It's always been a concern of mine that the average flight-simmer spends more than a couple of grand on hardware, more often than not, every few years or so it's replaced.

I'm concerned that to enable that hardware, when the software is essential, to some their imagined costs of development and cost of software compared to hardware seems to be vastly out of proportion. That's what I'm saying.

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24 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

But that is my point. v4.4 costs no more than the previous non-PBR version. If it has taken so much effort to build a new version that should be reflected in the price. So why hasn’t the price been increased?

Youre confusing two things ray...

1. you bought v1 and have had the benefit of non PBR texturing.  Youre now being able to buy an upgrade to PBR so you will have had the benefit of both.

2. a new purchasor only gets the PBR content, so they've paid the same as you (sans upgrade) but only had half the benefit.

Youre both paying for the same scenery.  its just that youve both had slightly different benefits of content. Look at it from a different angle perhaps? A new purchasor gets a €6.60 discount because theyve not had the benefit of the non PBR texturing in the past.   Do you want them to pay for something theyve never received?  Seems mighty fair to me...

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4 minutes ago, simbol said:

It does, I explained this before you didn't read it? please read my comments here where I show an overview of the process:

That is the risk of the business, and why we try to put a reasonable upgrade price so our current customers stay with us. And Increasing the price would not ensure more sales either and it could drive new customers away, in hence why your mathematical equation is not being applied or used by developers, sometimes you have to charge less to earn more as more copies sold will generate you a much bigger profit as long term sales have to be also considered, if you deliver good results.. people will find you online over a period of time and buy the product.

You have to stay competitive Ray despite of how much work you do, and the Flying sim world is a very hard business, there is a reason why so many developers do this only as part time.

Regards,
Simbol

Yes, I read your explanation and appreciate there is a lot of work involved. So why no increase at all in the price? Even a few Euros would be logical. I buy airports that cost more than this one and don’t baulk at the price because the exchange rate is a major factor in the price. And that is outside my control.

I fully appreciate the balancing act between price versus sales. Finding that sweet spot is difficult.

I haven’t bought any airports with PBR yet. If it is such a significant improvement I’m surprised there isn’t more discussion about it. Or maybe there is and I have missed it.

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1 minute ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Yes, I read your explanation and appreciate there is a lot of work involved. So why no increase at all in the price? Even a few Euros would be logical. I buy airports that cost more than this one and don’t baulk at the price because the exchange rate is a major factor in the price. And that is outside my control.

I fully appreciate the balancing act between price versus sales. Finding that sweet spot is difficult.

I haven’t bought any airports with PBR yet. If it is such a significant improvement I’m surprised there isn’t more discussion about it. Or maybe there is and I have missed it.

Ray, the irony of your argument is that you are taking a stance against additional charges whilst at the same time providing a supporting argument for higher charges for the base product.

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Logical. When I said 'I get it', what I meant was that it might seem slightly illogical the way they went about it. However this is just them being nice about it while having to charge for work.

Who cares how long or how many hours it takes to develop a product, when it's the ability to do the thing that's paid for not the time taken!

Time taken is usually out of proportion with profit on flight-sim add-ons anyway. Symbol well mentioned, often these projects are financed by the developer, grateful to receive something for the work.

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8 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

Youre confusing two things ray...

1. you bought v1 and have had the benefit of non PBR texturing.  Youre now being able to buy an upgrade to PBR so you will have had the benefit of both.

2. a new purchasor only gets the PBR content, so they've paid the same as you (sans upgrade) but only had half the benefit.

Youre both paying for the same scenery.  its just that youve both had slightly different benefits of content. Look at it from a different angle perhaps? A new purchasor gets a €6.60 discount because theyve not had the benefit of the non PBR texturing in the past.   Do you want them to pay for something theyve never received?  Seems mighty fair to me...

Kevin, I get the point that users of v1 have enjoyed the product for longer than v2 customers. But the price increase is over 25% of the original just for PBR. The other improvements are fairly minimal. That seems a hefty increase for a single addition.

I suspect the real reason the PBR version has not increased in price is because of the competition for LEBL. There are also versions by LatinVFR and Aerosoft which surprisingly no one has mentioned.

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7 minutes ago, ErichB said:

Ray, the irony of your argument is that you are taking a stance against additional charges whilst at the same time providing a supporting argument for higher charges for the base product.

I have no control over the exchange rate Erich. The developer doesn’t benefit when the GBP is weaker or stronger. They get paid the same.

Anyway, I appear to be in a minority of one in this discussion and have said all I wanted to say and have tried to defend my case against those who see it differently. We each see things differently and I have no problem with that.

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