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Urmel81

Aerosoft A330 professional not really compatible with AI!

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Posted (edited)

I am sorry but the issue some are facing has nothing to do with fps.
I've just tried the same flight, never below 30 fps, and the aircraft is again playing yoyo during descent, without reason.
The fps or hardware's excuse doesn't work with me, I have a powerful computer, and needless to say, I do the flight preparation by the book.

DESCENT PATH IS CORRECT
aG9hE7.jpg

SUDDENLY THE AIRPLANE GETS CRAZY
EZeHuO.jpg

AFTER RECOVERING FROM THE PLUNGE, INAPPROPRIATE EXTEND SPEEDBRAKE MESSAGE (??)
1F3EiY.jpg

ON TOP OF THAT, NO ILS
TefDLq.jpg

 

Same descent with the FS Labs 321, not a single bug, except one or two on the windshield. 🙂


fZxu3M.jpg
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Roch
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Best regards,
David Roch
Intel 9900K@5.1, Asus Maximus XI Formula, 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 4133 CL17, EVGA RTX 2080 Ti XC ULTRA GAMING, 3x SSD Samsung 970 Pro M.2, Corsair 1600W PSU & 49" Samsung curved 4K TV monitor@30Hz.
MSFS Alpha tester

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I believe Aerosoft are aware of those issues ... agree, nothing to do with FPS nor hardware, nor AI.

Cheers, Rob

Edited by Rob_Ainscough
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9 hours ago, w6kd said:

The reason that 18 fps is a magic number is that all ESP-based sims have an internal gauge refresh cycle that runs at 55ms intervals (~18 Hz).  This is the internal "heartbeat" of the sim, not to be confused with the frame rate as observed at the monitor.

That said, if the CPU isn't maxxed out but the GPU *is*, then you can have video frame rates below 18 while the CPU is still happily ticking away those 18Hz gauge refresh cycles inside the sim.  Conversely, if the CPU core running the main thread is loaded to the point where it can't keep those internal gauge refresh cycles ticking at 18 Hz, you'll also see a video frame rate drop, but in this case it's accompanied by the CPU not having enough throughput to handle the gauge refreshes on-time, so the timing of those refresh cycles becomes unstable.

Now if your automation uses PID feedback loops using the gauge system as a time reference, deviating significantly from 18 Hz may well "release the Kraken". 

I suspect that the reason some people are having trouble reproducing this problem is they are loading up the system with GPU-intensive workload to get frame rates below 18...in this case, I would not expect any aberrant behavior owing to a slowdown in the gauge refresh cycle.  But...if you load it up with CPU-intensive work...like heavy autogen and AI--if that pulls the frame rate down to below 18 you may well see the aberrant behavior being described here.

It's absolutely true that many (most) add-on acft will not depart controlled flight due to a CPU workload spike.  The reason this isn't endemic to all add-on panels is that there are other programmatic options for time references when writing panel code...I certainly would not program feedback loops and other real-time, time-critical processes based on the sim's internal gauge timer for exactly the reason that you can't count on it *always* holding fast at 18 Hz.  At least Aerosoft is honest about what's happening...but it does put a major dent in the selling point of this add-on as being an ideal lower-cost Scarebus alternative for a lower-end system.  Maybe for a mid-level system, but if you can't muster the CPU horsepower to keep that gauge refresh cycle steady with the settings you're after, you may be in for some heartache.

 

Thanks for your explanation.

When I'm in cruise level with my locked 30 FPS my GPU and CPU are not maxed out, they are far away from that. I watched this a few times, when things are loading (AI at this case) the FPS will drop shortly for some seconds and then everything is ok. I don't think (and I don't even know) that the GPU has loading much textures in 36000ft for AI which is on the ground.

The interesting thing: I had this problem in 36000 ft over Calgary and on descent to Vancouver (maybe 20000 ft). When I'm approaching Vancouver my FPS drops below 18, but the Airbus was working fine. I think when the FPS are going down really fast he has hugh problems, when the going down slowly he has no problems.

 

Happy new Year, THANKS AVSIM STAFF FOR YOUR HARD WORK!

Urmel

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6 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Yes, I believe Aerosoft are aware of those issues ... agree, nothing to do with FPS nor hardware, nor AI.

Cheers, Rob

Yes, they are aware of this issue since 2012 they told us. But they won't change it. It's the normal behavior of the Airbus that he needs 18 FPS constantly.

 

Thanks Urmel

Btw: I'm planning to build a new PC end of the year, do you have good suggestions? (I'd like to wait for new CPU's and GPU's)

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On 12/31/2019 at 9:15 AM, Kaiii3 said:

The 18 FPS limit,is nothing new from AS. I had the same problem in FSX with the old Airbius A32X from Aerosoft..... I still wonder why other Addons are working fine and what Aerosoft is doing that needs this FPS 18+.....

Just speculating, it seems solid..
Gauge systems run at 18hz while animation/logic code in the .mdl file runs at the sim's frame rate.
"If" AS has logic residing in the model file and the frames drop below 18 then any logic code there is slower than other logic provided by the gauges possibly turning it all wonky.
The other way around (FPS > 18) of course, has no effect.  

Again another speculation, for those who want to temporarily test and prove -
try turning on your frame limiter within the sim and set it to < 18 FPS.
Quick & dirty, easier than trying to overload the sim with heavy scenery, WX, AI etc..


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10 hours ago, Urmel81 said:

I'm planning to build a new PC end of the year, do you have good suggestions?

9900KS, 32GB RAM 3600 or higher, Titan RTX for the 24GB VRAM (ridiculous price though), Samsung/Intel/Muskin M.2 NVMe 2TB ... cooling is up to you but I prefer water cooling especially for the GPU.

VRAM usage in flight simulators is high, the better your CPU the more likely you'll use more VRAM as you're able to increase graphics settings ... sadly VRAM seems to come at a premium on nVidia GPUs so you might want to wait and see what GPU nVidia release next.  I would stick with nVidia GPUs for current and future platforms.

Cheers, Rob.

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On 12/31/2019 at 4:47 PM, duckbilled said:

Not sure why this matters in this case. They stated that "If at any point your fps drops below 18, you will start to see weird things. This is due to the nature how our A330 interacts with P3D compilers."

No need to prove that the problem exists. They admit that this is the way the product behaves. They don't even see it as a problem.

These are the system requirements:

System requirements:
Lockheed Martin Prepar3D V4.5.x Hotfix 2 (the latest version of Prepar3D is always needed)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 (64bit) (older 64bit versions not tested)
Processor: Intel Core™ i5 (i7 recommended) or AMD Ryzen 5 (Ryzen 7 recommended)
Memory: 16 GB RAM (16 GB recommended)
Graphics card: 4 GB VRAM (DirectX 11), e.g. GeForce GTX 1050 (6 GB, GTX 1070 recommended)
Requires HDR setting to be active!
Control hardware (joystick) with rudder and throttle channels
Download-Size: 1.9 GB

Nowhere on the product page or in the release notes do they clearly state that 18 FPS must be maintained at all times or the aircraft will no longer work. It should be a warning on big bold letters on the product page.

 

I agree with you 100%.  I'm not sure why you responded to me. (?)  Perhaps your post was directed at others.

My whole take (and Rob's and others in this thread) was that, if someone has an older cpu and an older gfx card, they may very well have their sim drop below 18 fps, yet the OP has never divulged his hardware nor his settings (or did I miss that?).  So how is anyone supposed to help/assist him in finding settings that will allow him to enjoy the A330?  That would then lead us to Aerosoft's system requirements that you posted.  Absolutely they should have the 18 fps thing noted.


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On 1/1/2020 at 3:24 AM, Rob_Ainscough said:

Yes, I believe Aerosoft are aware of those issues ... agree, nothing to do with FPS nor hardware, nor AI.

Cheers, Rob

OK, let's hope they will fix them. This aircraft definitely has an issue in how it handles speed and vertical speed during descent.
Speed brakes logic is wrong, the aircraft increasing thrust instead of decreasing it to idle.
And this is worse under bad weather conditions.

 


Best regards,
David Roch
Intel 9900K@5.1, Asus Maximus XI Formula, 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 4133 CL17, EVGA RTX 2080 Ti XC ULTRA GAMING, 3x SSD Samsung 970 Pro M.2, Corsair 1600W PSU & 49" Samsung curved 4K TV monitor@30Hz.
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Yep you're right the Aerosoft A330 Professional is a bit of a disappointment, for this reason, as well as many others, not to mention the poor support you get...  Standard response "we have been unable to replicate... topic is closed" LOL.

 

I think it even states in the product information when you're buying the product that it needs a certain amount of FPS to run smoothly, and like us all, we have many addons including AI aircraft and schedules that conflict with the Aerosoft A330 Professional.... But like Aerosoft will always say, its the other addons we have that are causing the issue, not their aircraft causing the problem lol.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, vhgjg said:

Yes they will and I really don't know what the point of your rant is really about either, other than to do the honourable thing and protect the company that you work for???  Which I respect as a great commitment, don't worry about the customers, their concerns never matter, as long as you make the $$$

 

Happy you brought that up!  I work as an unpaid advisor to Aerosoft, and I work for with many other developers.  I'm in an unpaid position because I had been working on a project that would have revolutionized P3D, radically increased performance (60fps no matter what addons were used) AND would actually save people hundreds of dollars.  But Microsoft's announcement of MSFS made my project senseless.

So, I'm defending the people and company purely because it's the right thing in this case, and the manner in which you have behaved is shockingly poor.

 

 

Edited by DaveCT2003

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, duckbilled said:

A shining example of good customer service is they way the folks at AIG have been handling the beta of AIM. They are super responsive, and admit when they make mistakes. All of this for an amazing FREE tool.  

Although this is true, there is also the factor how people approach them in the first place. People would never be rude to them because they offer free services.

Sometimes it is about how we approach companies to ask for help. Just because we pay for something it doesn't mean we can't be polite when we are frustrated because something doesn't work.

When we are kind, we will always receive a better service.

Regards,

Simbol 

Edited by simbol
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2 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Happy you brought that up!  I work as an unpaid advisor to Aerosoft, and I work for with many other developers.  I'm in an unpaid position because I had been working on a project that would have revolutionized P3D, radically increased performance (60fps no matter what addons were used) AND would actually save people hundreds of dollars.  But Microsoft's announcement of MSFS made my project senseless.

Assuming this wasn't some sort of sarcasm, I'm kind of curious what this was about 😅


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1 minute ago, Benjamin J said:

Assuming this wasn't some sort of sarcasm, I'm kind of curious what this was about 😅

I do my very best to avoid sarcasm. It's not always easy in this community, but I do try very hard.  No sarcasm has been present when dealing with the individual in question, if that's what you're asking about.

If you're asking about the project I mentioned, I'm under a very tight NDA (which as the Project Manager I actually I wrote... lol) not to discuss the project more than what I've already said.  Obviously we're already looking at MSFS, but we need to see the final product to do a deep dive type technical evaluation. After that we may well pick this project back up.  So, not dead, just on hold for future evaluation.  This is pretty normal on the flight sim development side. Projects get funded for research and sometimes never make it fully into development.  This is precisely the how third party developers helped push flight simulation to the level we now enjoy, and what people rarely get a glimpse of.

Thanks for the inquiry, and best wishes!

 

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26 minutes ago, simbol said:

Although this is true, there is also the factor how people approach them in the first place. People would never be rude to them because they offer free services.

Sometimes it is about how we approach companies to ask for help. Just because we pay for something it doesn't mean we can't be polite when we are frustrated because something doesn't work.

When we are kind, we will always receive a better service.

Regards,

Simbol 

Good point. I agree. Maybe the payware developers immediately take the defensive due to the way they are approached. Also, in this hobby, we have a large range of customers - young and old, pilots and gamers, highly technical and not so technical. That being said, it is their responsibility to overcome those challenges. It comes with the territory. Funny how I have never been asked by a developer if I was satisfied with my purchase.

I see this every day in my work - technologists are not very good with customer service. It takes years of experience to identify customer service shortcomings, but everyone think they can fake it until they make it. Meanwhile there is a 7 page thread about issues with their product and their service on the most popular message board in the FS ecosystem. I doubt they care about this thread and that is the core of the issue.


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4 minutes ago, duckbilled said:

Good point. I agree. Maybe the payware developers immediately take the defensive due to the way they are approached. Also, in this hobby, we have a large range of customers - young and old, pilots and gamers, highly technical and not so technical. That being said, it is their responsibility to overcome those challenges. It comes with the territory. Funny how I have never been asked by a developer if I was satisfied with my purchase.

I see this every day in my work - technologists are not very good with customer service. It takes years of experience to identify customer service shortcomings, but everyone think they can fake it until they make it. Meanwhile there is a 7 page thread about issues with their product and their service on the most popular message board in the FS ecosystem. I doubt they care about this thread and that is the core of the issue.

Indeed. It is also rare to find users that are happy with a purchase to leave positive feedback. Most of the time you only see in forums people with issues because the people that are happy with it just enjoy the product and don't come forward.

1 minute ago, Urmel81 said:

An company should be friendly all the time, they should learn it, even when the customer is really angry.

I don't fully know the circumstances around your case, I only jumped on this topic to try to offer alternative solutions after what you described so you can enjoy your simulator as it is my nature to always offer my help to others. 

However with all respect nothing give rights to customers of any kind (being online of physical) to treat with with anger or abusive behaviours any staff of any company. Just imagine what would happen if you enter any shop yelling in anger towards a cashier or any staff.. police would be called on the spot to deal with the situation and even charges could be made against the person in question.

So I do understand we can get very frustrated sometimes but we must remind ourselves that even when we are behind a keyboard, we are still dealing with a human in the other side of the screen and last time I checked nobody likes to be treated unfairly. 

All the best,
Simbol

 

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