MSFS Required Specs

[Noooch 1,084]

@109Sqn According to this, your PSU seems weak https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1116640-psucultists-psu-tier-list/

@canadiantree I just got a nice surprise in my email inbox yesterday morning 😉

[ricka47 611]

I'm trying to control my urge to upgrade until the new sim is actually released and new hardware (CPU, GPU) that is coming in the next few months become available.

[canadiantree 233]

@Noooch congrats, hope you like it! 🙂

[109Sqn 1,558]

4 hours ago, Noooch said:

@109Sqn

This is the PC I just ordered for MSFS thanks to the help of an AVSIM member for the same budget

...

RTX 2060 (went to Nvidia because the AMD video card can cause crashes based on your luck

...

Finally an M.2 slot will remain available for when NVME SSDs will be cheaper.

Thanks for that. I hadn't read of issues with AMD GPUs.

One thing I was too late to add to my posts was that the X570 mobo has two M.2 slots compared to the pre-built's one, so I could add a second one to install the sim on.

I've typically never had problems with either MSI or Gigabyte mobos, though I've used more of the latter. But one of my mobos died in my 2 faulty systems and right now I can't remember if it was the MSI or Gigabyte one...🤔

2 hours ago, Noooch said:

@109Sqn According to this, your PSU seems weak https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1116640-psucultists-psu-tier-list/

Ok, not a huge deal to upgrade that, but good to be aware in advance so it can be budgeted for. 👍 As long as nothing I have to upgrade is totally redundant, so it can go towards rebuilding one of my kaput desktops. ebaying is also an option for anything I don't need to keep, but I'd have to wait till the system's warranty had run out, just in case.

 

 

2 hours ago, ricka47 said:

I'm trying to control my urge to upgrade until the new sim is actually released and new hardware (CPU, GPU) that is coming in the next few months become available.

 

I totally get why people want to wait, and that is sensible, but I just need to get back to having a working system so i can stop having to rely on this old Vaio laptop with its broken K key, iffy keyboard sensitivity and it's lack of speed. I had to go back to Win 7 as it couldn't even complete Win 10 updates and kept trying every day. I obviously don't want to be using an old, unsupported OS any longer than I have to.

Plus, I won't be buying newly released hardware on my budget and don't want to gamble on higher spec hardware coming down to the right price once it is superseded.

Edited May 30, 2020 by 109Sqn
typo

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

12 hours ago, 109Sqn said:

Any obvious weak-points or bottlenecks? You may need to keep your advice, and reasoning behind it,  fairly simple to make up for my lack of recent experience as explained above.

Firstly, I would go with the pre-built system. Its RAM kit and GPU are quite a bit better than the build you were looking at, and the simulator is looking to be very GPU-bound so that's where you should be focusing on. The RX 590 and RX 5500 XT do not represent great value, and the low-end space has been extremely stagnant for several years.

The SSD is really good, but its capacity is low. Unfortunately the motherboard only comes with one M.2 slot, so your only upgrade path is a SATA SSD without removing that one. However, for gaming the difference between SATA and NVME is rather insignificant, and I guess you could wait until the simulator is released and benchmarks are in so you can make the best decision.

As for the motherboard itself, it's pretty much bottom-tier when it comes to the VRMs, and ASUS have been doing a pretty bad job at providing BIOS updates for several years. It should do you well enough as long as you do not overclock or upgrade the CPU. In that case, I would suggest waiting for a good deal on an X570 or B550 motherboard.

The PSU is also rather weak (typical of pre-build systems unfortunately), not just the build quality, but also the wattage is being stretched to its limit with that configuration. It should last you well for the system's first few years, but as soon as you decide to add more stuff or upgrade a component, that would be the first thing I'd replace. The tier list that Nooch posted is very good and is being updated frequently.

Edited May 30, 2020 by ChaoticBeauty

[Jonnoxx 53]

Very much appreciate these knowledgeable hardware comments from Nooch and Chaotic Beauty!

I will also be needing to upgrade my hardware, but like the OP, not having done this for many years, have completely lost my touch for evaluating between all the nuances in the latest hardware.

I don't have the urgency of replacement that the OP has, but my upgrade is still turning out to be a real headscratcher!

My decision - for now - is to WAIT until probably Jan/Feb next year before committing.  I have an old Dell 2710, i7, 16GB, 2TB SATA HDD, with an embarrassing Graphics Card.  So plenty room for improvement, but still, seemingly able to hobble along until the wallet catches up with the desire!

My increasing dilemma is that EVERYTHING in the new PC Spec seems to be driven SOLELY by the Graphics card.  Decide on how much you can afford on the card, and then EVERYTHING ELSE works backwards from there?

And the COST of the new graphic cards seem to be SERIOUSLY expensive! 

Now the Console it seems, may be given away at a loss-leader price that will not be matched by a comparable PC ($399 has been floated, but even $799 is manageable).

So much so that it seems that if you are not needing your PC for heavy lifting like Video-editing or Animations, then by far the better value option seems to be to just buy the Xbox console, and be done with it.  Provided ALL the usual the Flight-sim add-on's can be connected (which I imagine will be the case).

I'm not persuaded by the fear-factor that this is a BAD decision which locks you into a NON-upgradeable box.  And that 2 years down the line, you will be SUFFERING for that decision, and having to get an upgrade again.

So what?

That "inflexibility" hardly seems to be a real disadvantage.  At all !

You have the potential to save so much going just for the Console, that you can now afford the fancy new (and expensive!) peripherals coming onto the market. 

AND then ALSO the "new, upgraded" Console that will be launched afterwards then (you can bet your boots MS will be offering future console upgrades).

And the other thing, although it seems we have "just missed" it this time, is that Powerful Consoles and Gaming PC's are on a convergence path, where one day the Console will be THE work AND gaming PC rolled in one.  No idea when that will happen, but it's very close to realization.

Which brings me back to my particular dilemma - my work PC (the Dell) can do with a replacement to cater for the CAD work I do.  But not at any price.

So Console wins? (for now?).

I'll be happy for somebody knowledgeable to tear this speculation apart. I don't know enough to have a fixed opinion one way or the other yet.

💸

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Jonnoxx

[109Sqn 1,558]

2 hours ago, Jonnoxx said:

Very much appreciate these knowledgeable hardware comments from Nooch and Chaotic Beauty!

 

 

 

 

Agree, 100%. That's been exactly the 'lightly dumbed-down' response I was after.😀

I used to rely on Tom's Hardware for it's CPU and GPU hierarchy charts when they were simpler spreadsheets with similar spec components grouped in the same cell. That may have been too simple for experts but was ideal for someone who knows how to build but needs simple comparisons to help choose those components. Still useful but not so instinctively easy to use now IMO.

5 hours ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

Firstly, I would go with the pre-built system. Its RAM kit and GPU are quite a bit better than the build you were looking at...

The SSD is really good, but its capacity is low. Unfortunately the motherboard only comes with one M.2 slot, so your only upgrade path is a SATA SSD without removing that one. However, for gaming the difference between SATA and NVME is rather insignificant, and I guess you could wait until the simulator is released and benchmarks are in so you can make the best decision.

As for the motherboard itself, it's pretty much bottom-tier when it comes to the VRMs,... I would suggest waiting for a good deal on an X570 or B550 motherboard.

The PSU is also rather weak (typical of pre-build systems unfortunately)

Between you and Nooch, you've basically confirmed most of what I suspected, but needed reassurance of. Thank you.

That was my reasoning for replacing the mobo for the X570 - to allow Windows to reside on one SSD, and the sim on the second one. Do identical M.2 SSDs run at the same speed if there are two on a mobo or do they behave the same as four RAM chips on a dual channel DIMM board, i.e possibly slower?

 

Looks like I'll very much be running the new rig more or less as 'stock' until FS2020 is released, unless a too-good-to-resist X570 price comes up (or I'm impatient!). Certainly have to see the t&c regarding upgrading components when the rig arrives. Mobo and PSU the first upgrades, plus an increase to at least 32Gb RAM after that. This thing's going to be running Photoshop, Audition and Premiere, at least until I have a dedicated PC for them again.

 

Oh yes... I've ordered it! Arrives Monday.🤗 Although it's tempting to run FSX on it straight away, I'll probably be better just getting my day to day essentials up and running first.

 

Thanks for the help. I'll certainly be watching this thread of further ideas and tips.

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by 109Sqn
typo

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

4 hours ago, Jonnoxx said:

My decision - for now - is to WAIT until probably Jan/Feb next year before committing.  I have an old Dell 2710, i7, 16GB, 2TB SATA HDD, with an embarrassing Graphics Card.  So plenty room for improvement, but still, seemingly able to hobble along until the wallet catches up with the desire!

If you can wait, then I highly recommend doing so. For the past few years, GPU generation gains have been extremely poor, yet now NVIDIA are finally feeling threatened by the competition which should be very beneficial to us. I don't know if prices are going back to where they used to be, as AMD decided to adjust to NVIDIA's price gouging with the RX 5000 series instead (but then they were not in the position to start a price war against them at the time), but I imagine they don't want to lose GPU sales to the consoles. At least the performance benefits should be quite a bit larger this time.

4 hours ago, Jonnoxx said:

And the other thing, although it seems we have "just missed" it this time, is that Powerful Consoles and Gaming PC's are on a convergence path, where one day the Console will be THE work AND gaming PC rolled in one.

If they wanted to do this I guess they would already have, since consoles have been restricted PCs since the latest generation. It looks like the next step is to move console gaming to the cloud. Microsoft do not consider Sony as the competition anymore, but the Google Stadia and more. But at the moment anything seems possible.

2 hours ago, 109Sqn said:

Do identical M.2 SSDs run at the same speed if there are two on a mobo or do they behave the same as four RAM chips on a dual channel DIMM board, i.e possibly slower?

They can perform at the same speed as long as you are not limited by the PCIe lanes. Some compromises include the second M.2 slot running at PCIe 3.0 x2 if the first slot is in use, or one slot disabling some SATA ports and so on. These restrictions should be noted in the specifications appended in the motherboard's website. I haven't checked all, but most X570 motherboards do not seem to have any restrictions of that kind, though keep in mind that, at least in those that I've checked, only the first slot can use the PCIe 4.0 lanes from the CPU. I hope you'll enjoy your new system!

[109Sqn 1,558]

1 hour ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

 

They can perform at the same speed as long as you are not limited by the PCIe lanes. Some compromises include the second M.2 slot running at PCIe 3.0 x2 if the first slot is in use, or one slot disabling some SATA ports and so on. These restrictions should be noted in the specifications appended in the motherboard's website. I haven't checked all, but most X570 motherboards do not seem to have any restrictions of that kind, though keep in mind that, at least in those that I've checked, only the first slot can use the PCIe 4.0 lanes from the CPU. I hope you'll enjoy your new system!

Nothing I can find on Gigabyte's website for the X570 mobo, but from the manual:

Quote

Storage Interface Integrated in the CPU (M2A_SOCKET😞
3rd Generation AMD Ryzen™ processors:
- 1 x M.2 connector (Socket 3, M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 SATA and
PCIe 4.0 x4/x2 SSD support)
2ndGenerationAMDRyzen™ processors/2ndGenerationAMDRyzen™ withRadeon™
Vega Graphics processors/AMD Ryzen™ with Radeon™ Vega Graphics processors:
- 1 x M.2 connector (Socket 3, M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 SATA and
PCIe 3.0 x4/x2 SSD support)
Integrated in the Chipset (M2B_SOCKET😞
- 1 x M.2 connector (Socket 3, M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 SATA and
PCIe 4.0 (Note 2)/3.0 x4/x2 SSD support)
- 6 x SATA 6Gb/s connectors
-     Support for RAID 0, RAID 1, and RAID 10

 

(My Bold and my Red). I take it from that, that using the second socket won't affect the SATA channels? Can't spot another reference elsewhere. The "Note" is just referencing the fact that PCIe 4.0 only applies to 3rd Gen CPUs (so that's fine for my 3600). The section in bold for the 2nd socket could have been better written though. As it is, it could be saying PCIe 4.0 x4 and x2 & PCIe 3.0 x4 and x2 (which I think it is, or it could be saying PCIe 4.0 x4 & PCIe 3.0 x2. Typically ambiguous and muddy computer literature!🙄

I hope whoever is delivering gives me on the day tracking so I know how long I have to twiddle my thumbs for. I could have paid £5 for a nominated hour, but hey, Free Delivery is free delivery and I've spent enough already!😄

 

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

11 hours ago, 109Sqn said:

(My Bold and my Red). I take it from that, that using the second socket won't affect the SATA channels? Can't spot another reference elsewhere. The "Note" is just referencing the fact that PCIe 4.0 only applies to 3rd Gen CPUs (so that's fine for my 3600). The section in bold for the 2nd socket could have been better written though. As it is, it could be saying PCIe 4.0 x4 and x2 & PCIe 3.0 x4 and x2 (which I think it is, or it could be saying PCIe 4.0 x4 & PCIe 3.0 x2. Typically ambiguous and muddy computer literature!🙄

I agree, it's not written too well. I think it's safe to assume that, if it's a more expensive model, you can have two PCIe 4.0 SSDs at full speed, and if it's a cheaper model, one PCIe 4.0 and one PCIe 3.0 SSD at full speed (in this case it looks like the former).

[Anthracite 131]

On 5/30/2020 at 5:18 PM, Jonnoxx said:

Very much appreciate these knowledgeable hardware comments from Nooch and Chaotic Beauty!

I will also be needing to upgrade my hardware, but like the OP, not having done this for many years, have completely lost my touch for evaluating between all the nuances in the latest hardware.

I don't have the urgency of replacement that the OP has, but my upgrade is still turning out to be a real headscratcher!

 

It depends what kind of system you want. Consoles are sold at a loss and contain some proprietary firmware and hardware to help elevate them. They are able to keep pace with a mediocre gaming rig because of this and certainly represent great value if you enjoy games at 30fps. 
 

They won’t be replacing a pc anytime soon, as stated above, a lot of their performance is achieved by being as lightweight as possible in the software and having tightly controlled firmware. So while it’s theoretically possible to turn them into regular pc’s - as soon as you do that, you’re going to be affecting their performance. Won’t happen for the foreseeable unless we all move our data and software to the cloud. 
 

Regarding specs, I’ve never bought a flagship gpu. I’ve never struggled with games using xx70 Nvidia GPUs within the generational cycle. There’s a big alarm that rings in my head when I feel suits dipping their greedy fingers in my wallet. That’s what I hear when I see the price of xx80+ GPUs. Their price/performance tanks.

Even the xx70 GPUs of the current generation have been overpriced. Hopefully that’s remedied and they return to pre-RTX levels with ampere but, even if they don’t the xx60 is a great unit.

Its important to remember that if you have a fast gpu but a slow cpu, you will slow the gpu down. True of system memory and your motherboard too, to a lesser degree. For example- if you’re buying a 3600 but you want a 2080ti, you have to remember that your cpu is in control of your systems scheduling and the faster it can send things for the gpu to process the faster your gpu can process it. The 3600 would probably steal some of the potential performance of an rtx2080ti hitting its price/performance even harder. This works the other way around too. Great cpu with a lower tier gpu? The cpu has to wait for the gpu. While the rtx2080ti would still be the best gpu for your system, you’d want to levy the performance it’s offering properly otherwise you’re wasting money.

all of these contribute to real world measurable performance and stability. Focus on the hardware for your chosen budget, your money will go further and you’ll be much happier.

With that in mind, the 3300x coupled with an rtx2070 super would make for a stellar system, capable of running anything at 1440 and if you dropped it down to a 1660 super it would be even cheaper and easily handle 1080. That’s within the current generation and solely focused on gaming. You could get everything you needed for not a whole lot more than what the new consoles would cost. If you wait for the next gen hardware that will release just before or just after the consoles, you’ll be looking at a ~20% cost delta for a system that will be slightly faster in games (with more granularity on options and wider peripheral support) and if it’s your daily driver the combination of both would more than make up the 20%. 
 

It’s all about your personal situation. If you’d rather have a dedicated console for games and then a ~£250 laptop or desktop as your home pc, you’ll be spending a similar amount as you would on a gaming pc. If you only need a phone for your emails and social media or whatever, then the console is a great prospect - as it is also if you already have a stable home computer. 
 

If you need any help with your hardware choices lots of us here who have their finger on the pulse are happy to spread the knowledge 🙂

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Anthracite

[Seabass 95]

Excuse the ignorance, I'm not very technically savy...

By 'bandwidth', are MS meaning download speed?  If not, how do I check my bandwidth?

I live in the West of Scotland and have my internet with Virgin.  I get 110Mbps download and 10Mbps upload.

I think i'm looking at a new PC rather than upgrades based on my current specs (below) but would welcome any advice.  Thanks in advance.  Cheers,

Calum 

SPECS: Intel i7 4790K 4Ghz (Overclocked @ 4.00GHZ) Gigabyte Z97-HD3 R2.0 (Mboard), 8GB Corsair DDR3 XMS3 1699MHz (RAM), Nvidia GeForceGTX 770 2GB, Twin 2TB Seagate Barracuda Hard Drives 7200rpm 64MB Cache.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Seabass
Missed out specs

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

10 hours ago, Seabass said:

By 'bandwidth', are MS meaning download speed?  If not, how do I check my bandwidth?

Yes, it's the download speed. An easy way to check is by using Speedtest which tests for your download/upload speeds and ping to a server closest to you (it is possible to select other servers in the entire world as well).

10 hours ago, Seabass said:

I think i'm looking at a new PC rather than upgrades based on my current specs (below) but would welcome any advice.

A complete overhaul would be necessary indeed, as the platform is rather old. Your system meets the minimum system requirements of the new simulator, which means you will be able to run it but probably at lower settings. Do you need a new system now, or would you prefer to wait until the simulator is released so you can decide which hardware tier would suit you? Right now the prices are out of whack in several parts of the world and new hardware is coming in the next few months, so it is not the best time to build right now, but you can still get a very capable system if you need it sooner.

[Anthracite 131]

12 hours ago, Seabass said:

SPECS: Intel i7 4790K 4Ghz (Overclocked @ 4.00GHZ) Gigabyte Z97-HD3 R2.0 (Mboard), 8GB Corsair DDR3 XMS3 1699MHz (RAM), Nvidia GeForceGTX 770 2GB, Twin 2TB Seagate Barracuda Hard Drives 7200rpm 64MB Cache.

Your system is still reasonable. I only recently upgraded from an i5 2500k and gtx  970. It’s your gpu that’s lacking the most, if you’re playing at 1080 then waiting for the next generation and sticking in a lower end rdna2 or ampere gpu with a new 16 or 32gb ram kit would give you an acceptable frame rate for the lowest cost (around £400). 
 

I would highly recommend upgrading your whole system if possible though, either the latest 10 series intel cpus (10600k would be the best bang for buck From intel) or waiting for the soon to be released amd ryzen 4000 desktop units (no information so far). 
 

regardless of which upgrade path you take I would definitely invest in a solid state drive. It will dramatically reduce loading times. In your current system that would be a sata ssd but a future upgrade would also allow m.2 drives. You’d load and boot 5+ times as fast as your current hdd.

so if you decide to keep your current system but upgrade it you’d be looking at £400 and could achieve acceptable frame rates at a lower resolution. If you want a higher resolution/frame rate you need to replace your system.
 

if you replaced it, you’d be looking at £1.3k - £1.5k depending on your choices. For a system capable of 1440 max settings or 4K with sub 60 fps. (This is about what I spend every 8-10 years)

for a system capable of 4K and max settings you’d be looking at £2.5k+ ( but the £1.5k system  Could achieve it with a gpu upgrade a couple of years down the line, which if you included selling your gpu from the £1.5k system would probably make the total system cost still comfortably lower than £2k)

for 1080 max you could achieve it for less than £1k but it depends on how the prices of the new hardware get affected by the current economic situation. Choosing this option would also likely limit any upgrade path considerably, as each of the cheaper components would slow down any individual component change. Upgrading from this path in the future would likely require an upgraded motherboard. (Again the £1.5k system could upgrade comfortably for a couple of gpu generations).

 

 

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

3 hours ago, Anthracite said:

I would highly recommend upgrading your whole system if possible though, either the latest 10 series intel cpus (10600k would be the best bang for buck From intel) or waiting for the soon to be released amd ryzen 4000 desktop units (no information so far).

There have been several conflicting rumours recently, but what's almost definite is that AMD will be releasing the 12- and 16-core Zen 3 variants in the autumn, while 6- and 8-core variants are coming in late 2020 or early 2021. Probably because they have no reason to compete in the mainstream market until Rocket Lake, and Matisse Refresh might take care of Comet Lake nicely (that should be coming along with the B550 motherboards).