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KL Oo

Does AI really cost this much FPS?

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11 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Kael, out of interest what are you using to count the number of Ai in the sim?

Either AICompanion or P3D's Traffic Tool Box. Both indicate the same. I'm a long way from installing all of the AIG packages....thats a work in progress over the next couple of days.

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Kael Oswald

i7 8086k @ 5.1 / ASUS ROG Maximus XI / 16GB DDR4 3600 @ 15 / H150i PRO AIO / RTX 2080 TI / 49" SONY 4K LCD TV

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Posted (edited)

In AIM you have to set a link to a tool for texture convert in LM  SDK, not set by default, downloaded SDK so I could set that link. . I did that in HF1 and traffic quite light in system .Not sure if it does anything at all , will try and screengrab when on my sim PC as no idea what it is actually doing .I was hoping it converts all models to be V5 compliant but could easily be wrong. 

Edited by cannow

Colin hodds

I7 9700K,nvidia 2080 ,ssd ,32gig 3200mhz ram ,win10,prep3d

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12 minutes ago, cannow said:

In AIM you have to set a link to a tool for texture convert in LM  SDK, not set by default, downloaded SDK so I could set that link. . I did that in HF1 and traffic quite light in system .Not sure if it does anything at all , will try and screengrab when on my sim PC as no idea what it is actually doing .I was hoping it converts all models to be V5 compliant but could easily be wrong. 

Hi Colin,

I presume you mean ImageTool.exe that AIG use to convert to DDS textures? I have that set in AIG Manager.....that said....

I just noticed that when I try and run the .EXE it gives me an error telling me I'm missing D3DX9_43.DLL. I presume that this is a DX9 file of some sort and since this is a fresh install of Windows 10 2004 perhaps that file is missing....which raises the question, is ImageTool.exe being called to convert the AI textures to DDS format and if is it working?

More investigation required...might have to download DX9 manually...

 

 

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Kael Oswald

i7 8086k @ 5.1 / ASUS ROG Maximus XI / 16GB DDR4 3600 @ 15 / H150i PRO AIO / RTX 2080 TI / 49" SONY 4K LCD TV

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7 hours ago, KL Oo said:

Sitting on 27R at Sim-wings EGLL facing down the runway and looking at the buildings from within the F-35 cockpit I get a steady 120 FPS with all scenery maxed out . If I increase AI traffic to the point there is 150 aircraft in the sim, the FPS gradually drops down to about 30.

Is this consistent with what everybody else is noticing? Seems greater than it was in 4.5 but it's been a month or so since I used that version of the sim and don't have it installed anymore.

Hi Kael.

I was curious about your 120fps with all sliders to max. That seems incredibly high for Heathrow 3rd party even without Ai traffic.

So I've disabled wx, set Ai to 1 and all Terrain, Scenery Objects and Special Effects are all maxxed. In the F35 I get 30.3fps.

That's a quarter of your 120. That seems an incredible difference between v4.5 and v5 and our graphics cards. Your system specs suggest your running at 4K. If I drop my 4K resolution to 1920*1080 the fps increases to 38 proving the resolution isn't much of a barrier.

Is it possible that a 2080Ti and v5 can really make such a difference?


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor.
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I was curious about how much fps is impacted with increasing numbers of Ai in P3D v4.5. The Piper Cub was positioned at SimWings EGLL Rwy 27R with no weather running. My scenery settings are not relevant to this test since they remained unchanged with only the number of Ai changing. After each change of Ai the local time was reset to 09:00.

Whilst there is a significant impact when even low numbers of Ai are first introduced that is lessened as the numbers are increased. The limit of 316 was achieved with the Ai setting in FSUIPC set to 0. Rather than switch off Ai completely I set a value of 1 in FSUIPC to emulate zero traffic.

 

FPS_By_Ai.jpg


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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48 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Hi Kael.

I was curious about your 120fps with all sliders to max. That seems incredibly high for Heathrow 3rd party even without Ai traffic.

So I've disabled wx, set Ai to 1 and all Terrain, Scenery Objects and Special Effects are all maxxed. In the F35 I get 30.3fps.

That's a quarter of your 120. That seems an incredible difference between v4.5 and v5 and our graphics cards. Your system specs suggest your running at 4K. If I drop my 4K resolution to 1920*1080 the fps increases to 38 proving the resolution isn't much of a barrier.

Is it possible that a 2080Ti and v5 can really make such a difference?

Hi Ray,

I might have gotten myself a little confused in my conversations with Rob and the various scenarios I was looking at (default EGLL / Simwings EGLL / Traffic / No Traffic etc etc.)

Positioning myself at 27R in the default F35 at Simwings EGLL with NO AI traffic I'm getting a range of FPS between 70-80 FPS when looking at the gates/buildings etc.

I must preface this with the fact that I have NO AUTOGEN on at all and the default weather theme. All other scenery settings however is maxed out. 

I must say I'm impressed with V5 so far. I'm only early into my testing but I've been able to add 8XSSAA without taking a FPS hit in most scenarios. Unheard of in V4.


Kael Oswald

i7 8086k @ 5.1 / ASUS ROG Maximus XI / 16GB DDR4 3600 @ 15 / H150i PRO AIO / RTX 2080 TI / 49" SONY 4K LCD TV

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1 minute ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I was curious about how much fps is impacted with increasing numbers of Ai in P3D v4.5. The Piper Cub was positioned at SimWings EGLL Rwy 27R with no weather running. My scenery settings are not relevant to this test since they remained unchanged with only the number of Ai changing. After each change of Ai the local time was reset to 09:00.

Whilst there is a significant impact when even low numbers of Ai are first introduced that is lessened as the numbers are increased. The limit of 316 was achieved with the Ai setting in FSUIPC set to 0. Rather than switch off Ai completely I set a value of 1 in FSUIPC to emulate zero traffic.

 

FPS_By_Ai.jpg

Nice work Ray. I'll do some comparisons inline with yours tomorrow and use the same aircraft and time of day. 

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Kael Oswald

i7 8086k @ 5.1 / ASUS ROG Maximus XI / 16GB DDR4 3600 @ 15 / H150i PRO AIO / RTX 2080 TI / 49" SONY 4K LCD TV

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15 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I was curious about how much fps is impacted with increasing numbers of Ai in P3D v4.5. The Piper Cub was positioned at SimWings EGLL Rwy 27R with no weather running. My scenery settings are not relevant to this test since they remained unchanged with only the number of Ai changing. After each change of Ai the local time was reset to 09:00.

Whilst there is a significant impact when even low numbers of Ai are first introduced that is lessened as the numbers are increased. The limit of 316 was achieved with the Ai setting in FSUIPC set to 0. Rather than switch off Ai completely I set a value of 1 in FSUIPC to emulate zero traffic.

 

FPS_By_Ai.jpg

That is really interesting and I am asking myself if that is really normal, that coming from 0 Traffic to 1 does decrease your fps from 120 to 51. Do you think there is an issue with AI?

Maybe @Kaiii3 is also interested in these results.

Marcus

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9 minutes ago, KL Oo said:

Hi Ray,

I might have gotten myself a little confused in my conversations with Rob and the various scenarios I was looking at (default EGLL / Simwings EGLL / Traffic / No Traffic etc etc.)

Positioning myself at 27R in the default F35 at Simwings EGLL with NO AI traffic I'm getting a range of FPS between 70-80 FPS when looking at the gates/buildings etc.

I must preface this with the fact that I have NO AUTOGEN on at all and the default weather theme. All other scenery settings however is maxed out. 

I must say I'm impressed with V5 so far. I'm only early into my testing but I've been able to add 8XSSAA without taking a FPS hit in most scenarios. Unheard of in V4.

I don’t think the absolute number of frames decreased is the most useful metric. That seems to be scewed by the high numbers you can get at baseline in v5.

For example, you’ll note I got 98 frames per second with 30 aircraft in v5, whereas Ray reported 46 frames per second with a limit of 25 in 4.5

The percentage drop from baseline is probably the most interesting metric, but practically speaking the absolute frame rate with traffic on is what counts a great deal for smooth flight - there is a minimum frame rate you will need for fluidity, can you get that with your desired traffic level?

I’ve also found that there are less microstutters in v5 with traffic than in v4.5. In v4.5, my frame rates were decent but i normally ended up turning the AI traffic off for reasons of smoothness (the same applied to shadows). In v5, I usually just leave traffic at 100%, though flying in to EGLL a limiter would be sensible.

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Rob

Sim rig: i9900K @ 5GHz, 2080 Ti. Flying P3D v5, X-plane 11, Aerofly FS2 and DCS in VR. 

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"There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

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4 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

That is really interesting and I am asking myself if that is really normal, that coming from 0 Traffic to 1 does decrease your fps from 120 to 51. Do you think there is an issue with AI?

Maybe @Kaiii3 is also interested in these results.

Marcus

Marcus, I never achieved 120fps. That was Kael. Rather than disable the AIG addon I set traffic to 1 which is as close to 0 as I can get with AIG running.

I disabled the AIG Add-on and the fps changed to 56. Enabling it and setting FSUIPC to show 1 aircraft dropped it to 54. Hardly any difference. There will always be minor fluctuations in fps simply because of everything going on in the sim.

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Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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34 minutes ago, KL Oo said:

Hi Ray,

I might have gotten myself a little confused in my conversations with Rob and the various scenarios I was looking at (default EGLL / Simwings EGLL / Traffic / No Traffic etc etc.)

Positioning myself at 27R in the default F35 at Simwings EGLL with NO AI traffic I'm getting a range of FPS between 70-80 FPS when looking at the gates/buildings etc.

I must preface this with the fact that I have NO AUTOGEN on at all and the default weather theme. All other scenery settings however is maxed out. 

I must say I'm impressed with V5 so far. I'm only early into my testing but I've been able to add 8XSSAA without taking a FPS hit in most scenarios. Unheard of in V4.

70-80 sounds better. Obviously v5 and your 2080Ti are making the difference here. I had Autogen on max but I won't repeat the test with it off as I'm not sure it would add to the debate.

Interesting you should mention 8xSSAA. I've always had 2xMSAA set believing anything higher was unnecessary at 4K. But the 1080Ti is so powerful there is no reduction in fps moving to 8xSSAA and there is less shimmering with ground objects. So thanks for mentioning that. 👍


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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Posted (edited)

Performance of BGL based Traffic is depending on multiple factors of your hardware. The actual visible objects/textutres animations are more or less depending on the GPU, but the actual calculation of the traffic is done by the CPU. So both of them are potential bottlenecks when it comes to AI Traffic.

I have done quick test some time ago and compared BGL based traffic with SimConnect based traffic and I got on my system (i7 3930k and GTX970 - yeah I know not that good) a light increase of FPS in v4.5HF2. So far I have not yet run this test in v5, but I am sure that at some stage in the development of AIG Traffic Controller AIGTech will investigate if there is actual a improvement on the CPU usage and FPS.

Over at the AIG Forum are some posts that discussed different design options for models/textures and how they impact performance.

Edited by Kaiii3

AIGtechBanner_Kai_AVSIM.png

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4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Hi Kael.

I was curious about your 120fps with all sliders to max. That seems incredibly high for Heathrow 3rd party even without Ai traffic.

Are you running Unlimited (frames) mode /vsync off for these tests?   

That could account for the wide variation in fps.


Rhett

i7-8700k @ 5.0 ghz, 32 GB G.Skill TridentZ, 1080Ti, 32" BenQ, 4K res

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33 minutes ago, Mace said:

Are you running Unlimited (frames) mode /vsync off for these tests?   

That could account for the wide variation in fps.

Yes, of course. Kael has already replied saying the 120 was wrong. 70-80 was the actual figure but that was with autogen off whereas mine was at max.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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Lots of AI aircraft has always negatively impacted performance for me, manifesting as reduced frame rates and some stuttering/pauses.

What I've done to minimize the performance impact is 1)use the FSUIPC traffic limiter, and 2)reduce the texture size to 1024.  Most AI aircraft textures are 4096, but in some cases even 16384 which is entirely unnecessary.  I personally don't need AI aircraft textures to be very high resolution. Remember that the greater the number of pixels the harder the graphics card has to work.

Dave

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