>>nobody from Eaglesoft ever said the upgrade would be free.>>Caveat Emptor! Don't ever forget it.That is true, they never said it was going to be free.It was clearly my mistake for purchasing it a couple of months ago and never thinking for a minute that they would actually charge their customers to purchase it again. The only experience I had to go on was that I owned about a third of Flight1's products during the FS2002-FS9 transition and they never charged anyone a dime to get the upgraded versions. We had to wait about 6 months to get them but they were all free.So I was blindsided - I'm smarter now, I won't purchase a thing in the 12 months leading up to a new release. So, does that mean we can expect most of the aircraft developers to be charging 70% for their FSX retrofits?

"Flight1's products during the FS2002-FS9 transition and they never charged anyone a dime to get the upgraded versions."Eaglesoft made the transition FS2002-FS2004 upgrades at no costs to the consumer in that period of time. We stated our FS9-FSX policy in plenty of time for interested parties to know and understand what our plans were for FS9-FSX transition.Failure to know and understand on your part does not translate into "blindsiding" or unfair treatment on Eaglesofts part.We've repeatedly said that anyone who is disatisfied should take advantage of our 30 day, no questions asked, refund policy.

What you have to remember is the difference between FS02 and FS04 is not as great as it is between 04 and X, they've completely restructured X, in some areas gone forward and in others a huge leap back (raindrops anyone? Deserts everywhere?).

Yes Jeremy, Obi-Wan. :-)

>If you knew what goes on behind the scenes to update the>aircraft to FSX standards, you wouldn't question the fairness>of their pricing, trust me. It's not a simple port they're>doing, but actually updating and enhancing the models with the>newer graphical features available now. Totally agree! You always need to pay for improvement. The developers are doing their job. It is not that easy as you may think, and not so fast. Time is money.>So, does that mean we can expect most of the aircraft developers to be charging 70% for their FSX retrofits?I think yes, but IMHO this is fair.

Geez....Let me ask folks one thing.Did you buy the Liberty for FS9 or FSX? What did it say on the compatibility? Did it say 'free upgrade to FSX' when you bought the thing? No? Then you have no argument.If Eaglesoft were out to rip customers a new one, they would be charging $60 bucks an aircraft,$ for redownloads, and still making you pay for the upgrades like another company we all know....If alot of work is involved in the upgrade, then how is this not justified? And how can you say you are being ripped off when you bought an aircraft for FS9? If they have to spend their time on getting the thing to work in the FPS sharktank that is FSX, then they deserve to be paid.I think Eaglesoft has consistently been one of the 'good guys' in FS addons (30-day refunds anyone? Ask PMDG to match that one) and to call them out like this is uncalled for. You want to target a developer for being greedy? Go over to the PMDG thread and let it rip.

Nick, thanks for the support. We appreciate folks who understand the workload involved in all of this and the fact that those who do that work must be paid and paid fairly:-)

>>Are these all built in the Liberty 1.5 FSX version then?>>Not all of them can be (or some unlisted features, I'm not>sure), simply because the GMax SDK is coming out next week at>the earliest. Before that no developer can release a plane>add-on that makes full use of all the new things FSX offers>(as far as I know).>>I'm quite certain THAT update for the Liberty 1.5 WILL be>free, though, since Liberty 1.5 customers have already paid>for their "FSX upgrades" on that particular plane :) They're>just getting some of the upgrades at a later time.>>Note that I don't represent EagleSoft.Thanks for the reply and no I don't think you represent ES. But then why did eaglesoft release more than one product already when the SDKs aren't even available yet? Even the title "1.5" hints they are half-way products. Flight1 also updated their C172 for FSX, also not much X standard improvements at all. Guess what? that update is free.So the question remains whether Eaglesoft is cashing in after all.Yet there are a lot of simmers who would buy most addons as they come out anyway and there is nothing wrong with that. We aren't exactly a group of kids who live on the parents' allowance. Many have their own planes, what's the price tag for an FS addon?Also I think we'll get used to developers charging for FSX updates, major or minor. Eaglesoft is getting this because they simple couldn't wait. How much did we pay for FS2002 and an addon at that time? And how much are we paying now? Like life itself it only gets more and more expensive. And again, nothing really wrong with it. The supply and demands still make it a fair market.Jason

>Nick, thanks for the support. We appreciate folks who>understand the workload involved in all of this and the fact>that those who do that work must be paid and paid fairly:-)>>I respect developers at eaglesoft but I think this concept is wrong. It's not a good arguement to state how many hours of work has gone into a product hence the compensation. The reason is we are not in a employer/employee relationship. I don't pay you by the hour. I, as all other customers, judge a product by its perceived value. So what I think you should really do is posting a new and improved feature list of your 1.5 product line (and I'm sorry if you have already done so somewhere). When people don't even see some features standard on default FSX planes available on a commercial addon labled for FSX the questioning is not really that out of line.But again nothing against eaglesoft and the 1.5 products. Those who feel they are worth it make the purchase. Just my personal opinion.Jason

Sheesh, we hardly think that Eaglesoft is "cashing in" on an FSX product that cost a whopping $16.07 discount price or even at a whopping $22.95 normal price.We discounted the product to assist customers who wish to own the FSX product. Those who do wish to own the FSX product at $16.07 have been doing so since release. There are now a significant number who own the FSX product at the full price and are quite pleased as well.All of our FSX products will be released with a 30% Discount Coupon which will expire 30 Days from the date of release.When that happens, users will again decide if they wish to own the product or not.Bottom line, Eaglesoft Team Members do not work for free.:-)

>Sheesh, we hardly think that Eaglesoft is "cashing in" on an>FSX product that cost a whopping $16.07 discount price or even>at a whopping $22.95 normal price.>>We discounted the product to assist customers who wish to own>the project. Those who do wish to own the FSX product at>$16.07 have been doing so since release. There are now a>significant number who own the FSX product at the full price>and are quite pleased as well.>>All of our FSX products will be released with a 30% Discount>Coupon which will expire 30 Days from the date of release.>>When that happens, users will again decide if they wish to own>the product or not.>>Bottom line, Eaglesoft Team Members do not work for free.:-)>>>> I think it's a bargain because I'm sure there are alot of hours in that product ;-) Andr

>That is true, they never said it was going to be free.How much discount did Microsoft give you when you "upgraded" to FSX?

I think Everyone here is sort of on the wrong track. I dont feel that it should be a question of whether or not its fair for ES to charge for x amount of work that goes into an update. If they put in all that time and effort then they have a right to ask to be compensated.The real question to my way of thinking is whether or not ES made a good business decision (as far as the consumer is concerned) by choosing to add certain features right now (unecessarily increasing their labor time) which the consumer doesnt care too much about (or even notice) in a conversion type offering.In other words, was it really necessary to change all the items they changed? Exactly what features were absolutely necessary to get the plane functioning in fsx in the same or similar manner in which it functioned in fs9?, and if thats all they did then i tend to agree that it can be called a legit conversion and would probably be a good business decision to offer it free of charge to previous purcashers made within the last 90 days of that product.However, if they went above and beyond by making more changes than necessary for it to run, although it may be fair to ask for more money, it was probably a very poor business decision in the end. If it took them a tremendous effort just to get it running at all in fsx then they may have no choice of course...so one needs to be truly educated about what had to go into it before passing judgement. That being said, it would probably be a wiser choice to first just get it running in fsx properly and offer the free update to all who already purchased, and then later on add all the true fsx features and call it a new product and charge everyone the full cost at that time, afterall this is what the market has come to expect and support as well.Dave

>Sheesh, we hardly think that Eaglesoft is "cashing in" on an>FSX product that cost a whopping $16.07 discount price or even>at a whopping $22.95 normal price.You are right. Anyone who's in the market should know that's very good price given the quality of the product. And no, you should not work for free. :) We want you to be paid and paid well so we keep getting quality products like your liberty, cirrus, columbia, etc. etc.I think this thread is a market reaction to your marketing decision and action...including timing, pricing, advertising/presentation. It not only has to do with what's done but also how it's done.For example I had a question when I saw the release "What's new?" and I still haven't found the answer. A list of improvements and features could easily have been posted in the product page (sorry if I didn't see it I looked). Without that information I can only assume it bares no new features unique to FSX, it's only been made compatible with X so it works the same way as they do in FS9. I'm not saying that has no value to it. But many of us still have the memory of an addon being supported for free through and into the one next version of FS...especially for a product released toward the end of the ealier's life span. That's part of the value of the original product. If that's not your policy (and I'm sure there's no confusion about it), some may have their opinions about it and it's again not totally unreasonable. As I said earlier, F1 172 has also been made compatible with FSX. That update was free and I'm sure it was a lot of work too as you have stated many times and I'm sure F1 doesn't work for free either.Since there are such reaction to it it deserves your attention as the business. I think it's equally important to take note as well as to react positively and professionally. I'm sure you've been doing both well.

>>That is true, they never said it was going to be free.>>How much discount did Microsoft give you when you "upgraded">to FSX?Basically irrelevant. A short arguement like this may often sound very smart but that's about it.