This release is the epitome of the gaming industry

[Mike T 220]

14 hours ago, VFXSimmer said:

Man... take a breath...

I've read a bunch of these posts and I really don't think we're using the same program.  This thing is amazing.

I've also read the lists of things making people hyperventilate and they seem pretty trivial to me.  Heck we're a week into it and we already have a community buzzing with activity submitting scenery, a zibo-like mod in development... the "facts" as I see are a ton of people who really like this thing.  I dunno, but I kinda suspect you're in the minority here.

You're acting like we spent $10,000 on this thing .. even the deluxe version is less than the cost of a nice dinner.  If planes literally didnt leave the ground, or scenery flat out didnt load, or if crashes were overwhelmingly preventing people from playing you might have an argument, but I hardly think a few bugs in a make-believe autopilot should conjure up some Machiavellian corporate ne're-do-well sitting in his/her ivory tower counting their misbegotten cash....

See. This is a perfect example of deflection. EVERYTHING you wrote had NOTHING to do with what I wrote. So let me help. The main idea in my post was that Microsoft has released another unfinished flight simulator. The last 2 titles before it were also released unfinished - but they were NEVER finished. And now we have the exact same scenario and the exact same promises. The other points in your post are things that you injected. I mentioned none of them. And the fact that the brilliant people in this community are fixing things is irrelevant. Nor the fact that MSFS can be totally beautiful or enjoyable. For the record I enjoy MSFS's VFR aspects, but I'm also not willing to stand there grinning like everything is just fine because I've been here before.

Look a little deeper. My point was that there is no track record of Microsoft keeping its word on its simulator releases. And this time the risk is HUGE. Now we are reliant on the cloud to stream everything to us, if Microsoft does what they did to FSX or Flight you will have a pretty useless paperweight because it's no longer self contained. 

Another point that you make is strange. The amount you spend on a product is totally irrelevant. If I spend $3 on a cheeseburger and it's missing the cheese, I'm going to complain. If you were behind the counter are you going to tell me "hey it's not like we spend $10,000 on this thing" and I should keep quiet and be happy with what you gave me because YOU are enjoying it the way it is? And to YOUR point, yes it's the cost of a NICE dinner. A NICE DINNER. Not a dinner that is presented beautifully but it's missing core parts of the meal - with a promise that it will be delivered to my home over the next 10 years.

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Mike T
grammar

[Andy675 41]

I have used this simulator everyday since its launch on August 8th. While I truly believe one day it will be a fantastic simulator I am reverting back to FSx. I fly the Airbus and until there is a third party program such as the Aerosoft A319/320 etc I will stay with FSx. The graphic detail in this new sim is very good, I run it on the Ultra setting I can live with scenery on the earlier sim. Also I prefer the add-on airports. Look at Gatwick on the new sim and it is basically a few buildings in a muddy field, compare that with the add-on for FSx. Again I do believe this simulator will be great one day, just not yet.

[Elvensmith 165]

31 minutes ago, Mike T said:

Look a little deeper. My point was that there is no track record of Microsoft keeping its word on its simulator releases. And this time the risk is HUGE. Now we are reliant on the cloud to stream everything to us, if Microsoft does what they did to FSX or Flight you will have a pretty useless paperweight because it's no longer self contained. 

Some of us with long memories remember what MS did with Train Simulator. I was hooked by the PR and having one of the few sites (at the time) covering the genre they even flew me out to Fanstock in Seattle for a preview. However beyond the eye candy and the novelty of a "proper" sim when at the time most still used text based graphics, we got a product with some serious flaws and a very incomplete set of editors (SDK) We got one patch which addressed a tiny number of issues.

We then had not one but two promises of a "MSTS2" which would be the bees knees, both got cancelled - the first because MS lost patience with the developer, took it back in house then dumped it. The second time when they decided to put their Games division on hiatus.

So undelivered promises are nothing really new where MS is concerned.

[irrics 1,517]

18 hours ago, pmb said:

I don't know the Asobo-MS-contract but...

 

That's really where that post should've ended

(before the baseless speculation that followed the "but")

[kerosene31 351]

I can tell you as a software developer for many years now (nothing to do with gaming, but it applies all over), behind every buggy release, there's high level manager(s) pushing things out the door before they are ready.  (I have no insight into this situation specifically, but it is pretty common)

I do a lot of work in qa/testing and none of the bugs are a shock to anyone.  I bet every one is documented somewhere.  

I will also let you in on a little secret, any developers I know of any kind of software has gone to agile development.  That's a complex methodology that means different things to different people, but the core principle is getting out what is called a minimum viable product.  That's marketing speak for "ship it now, fix it later".  On top of it, managers seem to think agile means "work twice as fast".  It means getting something functional out to the customer that might not be complete.  

I'm not saying people should accept it, but if you think it is going to change, think again.  Agile has a lot of flaws, but it is a far more practical way of developing in the modern world.  If you're looking for a finished product to be shrink wrapped in a box, you should change your expectations.  You're probably better off waiting for the first major point release.  

I'm not down on this, only because the massive potential is so easily visible.  This sim is already light years beyond past ones and I can't wait to see what the future holds.  Honestly, I've put this on hold for now because the frustration level is a little too high, but I can't wait to see what this sim becomes.  

Edited August 29, 2020 by kerosene31

[TacomaSailor 192]

If you find that flying in the Sim or using the infrastructure is so tedious and error prone - THEN don't fly it!

No One is making you use the sim and if it offends you - you can keep using whatever legacy system you do enjoy/appreciate/respect.

I've been using the MS Flight Sims since the earliest days and am perfectly happy with using the current product as it was delivered to us.  I understand there will be problems, errors, and deficiencies but, even with all that, it is a big improvement over FSX, in which I had invested thousands of dollars in add-ons.

You might recall BETA testing means there are still bugs and errors that need to be identified by the wide-wide world of an open system such as Windows.  If you don't want to be a Beta Tester - then take a break and come back in a few months after I have had a lot of fun using, testing, and enjoying the product as it currently exists. 

You can't very well willing participate in a Beta Test and then complain it is a buggy product that needs testing. 

[Keto Ketchup 240]

Anybody like to have some fries with their salt?

[TacomaSailor 192]

can't make

xx

as expected so deleted entire message and reposted lower

Edited August 29, 2020 by TacomaSailor
[Quote] does not work as expected

[BigDee 119]

On 8/19/2020 at 6:12 AM, maniamcool said:

FS2020 was released in a much more broken state than any of it's predecessors, let's make that clear.

Somehow I think this is one of the indicators how things might change in the future(into the wrong way). Unfinished, malfunctioning products will be a casual thing in our daily life, we won`t accept them, we will think of them as a typical way of our life. Over the air updates might be an excuse and fix things, but image this would have happen in the past, would somebody buy an unfinished product?

It`s OK with FS, I mean people get the joy of playing the game before it should have been released, but there was no info on that, pre release, etc. That is just a typical marketing move. While this is again no problem for a game, just think how things like car industries are developing, for exmpl.Teslas and other car manufacturers. OTA are getting common, the same way as new cars producing endless system errors, crashes and malfunctions.

Just like the Apple lifestyle that has adapted into our life. In the past they were (and are for mereally) strange looking outsiders, now everybody wants to be like them, the internet is full of like buttons, selphie photos, app stores and cloud software for squezzing the money out of the customers.

Edited August 29, 2020 by BigDee

[TacomaSailor 192]

Kerosene said: "I will also let you in on a little secret, any developers I know of any kind of software has gone to agile development.  That's a complex methodology that means different things to different people, but the core principle is getting out what is called a minimum viable product.  That's marketing speak for "ship it now, fix it later".  On top of it, managers seem to think agile means "work twice as fast".  It means getting something functional out to the customer that might not be complete.

I'm not saying people should accept it, but if you think it is going to change, think again.  Agile has a lot of flaws, but it is a far more practical way of developing in the modern world.  If you're looking for a finished product to be shrink wrapped in a box, you should change your expectations.  You're probably better off waiting for the first major point release."

Way back when Dinosaurs roamed the computing world - I developed and supported enormous, now called "Big Data", systems in the very tightly and rigidly controlled IBM mainframe environment.   We did not release software until it passed a world of rigid testing.  And, coders/testers/customer interface folks were highly experienced and very much hands on the end product.  Our users and competitors constantly complained about the "closed" development and testing process.  We were not very responsive and often used the "take or leave - this is what you get" approach to customer requests. 

That environment worked because the hardware and OS and intermediate software was well known, of limited extent, and tightly controlled. 

As time progressed and the Open World of customer and "third party" and then Open Source software became more prevalent - our ability to rigidly control software releases diminished as did our ability to understand every nuance and subtle difference in customer hardware and software configurations. 

Now developers do not have a rigid target environment nor do they have a single customer audience.  And, as you say - marketing drives the schedule and frequently the content.  But, customers now have a loud voice and in exchange for that "voice" - those customers must deal with "BETA" tests as we are all now experiencing.  

The customer environment is just too varied for any testing matrix or scenario set to anticipate every little difference in configurations and, more importantly, customer usage.  Thus Open Beta Tests are almost a requirement for a product with a widely diverse audience such as Flight Sim 2020.

Again, if an end user is not comfortable dealing with a product, which is clearly identified as still in Beta Test mode, then said end user should refrain from using the product.

An easy and obvious answer - at least from my half-century of software development prospective. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by TacomaSailor

[kerosene31 351]

People also maybe forget about the launch of FSX.  There's a forum here dedicated to CTDs in sims, mostly FS ones.  FSX barely ran on the best hardware of the day at launch. People remembering FSX's launch being smooth are remembering things differently than me.  

[DreamSkywards 42]

On 8/19/2020 at 7:57 AM, omarsmak30 said:

Indeed, if we are talking about rush release, P3Dv5 fits that. Until today on my machine, it has never been stable (never installed anything not compatible with it), until one point I just gave up on it. 

 

It's the perfect opposite for me.

I bought MSFS2020 twice (!).

Huge performance issues at first, got tired, got it refunded. The second time, I wasn't even able to instal it. Download issues. Sorry but I am not going to waste 20 hours waiting for this piece of ... to instal. Download issues not even present at first. "Only" waited about 3 hours. Same speed. Nothing changed on my system. Again, got it refunded.

 

Done with this word not allowed sim.

[VFXSimmer 1,312]

1 hour ago, Mike T said:

See. This is a perfect example of deflection. EVERYTHING you wrote had NOTHING to do with what I wrote. So let me help. The main idea in my post was that Microsoft has released another unfinished flight simulator. The last 2 titles before it were also released unfinished - but they were NEVER finished. And now we have the exact same scenario and the exact same promises. The other points in your post are things that you injected. I mentioned none of them. And the fact that the brilliant people in this community are fixing things is irrelevant. Nor the fact that MSFS can be totally beautiful or enjoyable. For the record I enjoy MSFS's VFR aspects, but I'm also not willing to stand there grinning like everything is just fine because I've been here before.

Look a little deeper. My point was that there is no track record of Microsoft keeping its word on its simulator releases. And this time the risk is HUGE. Now we are reliant on the cloud to stream everything to us, if Microsoft does what they did to FSX or Flight you will have a pretty useless paperweight because it's no longer self contained. 

Another point that you make is strange. The amount you spend on a product is totally irrelevant. If I spend $3 on a cheeseburger and it's missing the cheese, I'm going to complain. If you were behind the counter are you going to tell me "hey it's not like we spend $10,000 on this thing" and I should keep quiet and be happy with what you gave me because YOU are enjoying it the way it is? And to YOUR point, yes it's the cost of a NICE dinner. A NICE DINNER. Not a dinner that is presented beautifully but it's missing core parts of the meal - with a promise that it will be delivered to my home over the next 10 years.

 

Look, I've been using Microsoft flight sims since the Sub Logic days, so I've seen the good and the bad... but what they have or havent done before is irrelevant to me..

They could not release a single additional update and the fact will still stand that they've redefined the genre. 

The streaming model that you seem so worried about is actually a significant change to the paradigm where the quality of your world simulation was limited to the hard drive space you had on your local machine.  THAT'S huge.  We're seeing a virtual world in a way that most of us dreamed about back when all you had was a green earth, blue sky, and a pixelated white line representing a runway.  And that's happening across the ENTIRE planet.  With the state of the sim RIGHT NOW you can go just about anywhere and find something cool.  In the past you would need terabytes of storage and weeks of setup time to do anything similar (and even with all that effort it still didn't look as good - sorry X-plane, but its true, even with orthos).  You just said above your enjoy the VFR aspects, do yourself a favor and take the showcase camera, put it on walk speed and just roam around the Serengeti... its beautiful!  

My point about the community is actually less about the fact that they are 'fixing things' (even though that's how it works on EVERY platform in the sim world) - it's the amount of buzz and excitement that's happening already.  The game has just been out for a little over a week and there's a ton of scenery being made, user mods, liveries, and "zibo mod" to the Neo.  People are jazzed.  I think the 'problems' you elude will be fixed far sooner than you think - be it by MS/Asobo or the community.  Put down the sour face and come join the fun!

I hear your concern about MS and the cloud.  Always a chance, but I think .. (I mean come on) .. highly unlikely.  And even IF the doomsday scenario were to occur, I've been building enough of my own scenery already to see that you can do just as much with this program in offline mode and a hard drive of built up stuff (your own and 3rd party)  as you can with the other sims.  It wont be turning into a paperweight.. it wouldn't be quite as fun as what we have now, but it'd be no worse than what the other sims are offering.

As I said before I don't have a problem calling out and listing bugs that need to be fixed.  That SHOULD happen.  I've sent a few bugs/requests myself to Zendesk ... I'm assuming since you seem so piqued by all of this you have done the same?  My problem is when people resort to extreme hyperbole saying "MS better not look at a flight sim franchise again".  Give me a break.  In this clickbait world where reviews are reduced to a one to five star rating, overzealous exaggerations put out on forums actually have more of risk of damaging the health of a product than they do of causing the developers to 'change tack' and behave in the manner the poster deems appropriate.  Nuance and perspective is lost these days where newcomers see a low star count and just move on without seeing what they're missing.  I work in the movie industry and have seen what snowballing negativity can do .. unfairly .. to torpedo something.  So yeah, I feel the urge to push back here on out of proportion negativity.  What Asobo has done its pretty amazing, even with the odd blemish or two.

If I were to use your metaphor, this is not a case where the burger has no cheese.  At worst the bun has a few discolored sesame seeds and the manager has already said he's going back to get you a new one.

 

[Keto Ketchup 240]

So is it okay that I'm really enjoying this new sim, warts and all? Am I all alone?

[bernd1151 6,044]

11 minutes ago, Keto Ketchup said:

So is it okay that I'm really enjoying this new sim, warts and all? Am I all alone?

No you are not Keto, we are the silent masses 😄