I really am feeling bad about the teams at Laminar and Lockheed that for many years has kept this hobby alive. Lockheed has some other sources of income so not so much for them naturally.

Sure - they have known this for a year, but I think that many of us after actually having tried MSFS realize that it really is game over for them. For a year or two before complex aircraft are migrated they have a role to fill. But no third party developer will put down money on new complex content for P3D or XP unless it's easy to migrate from new MSFS models. I sure would stop any such ideas if I was on the board of those companies.

The DCS and IL2 teams are naturally are a bit shaky as well, even though they might actually benefit from this new interest in flight sims in my opinion as there is no air combat in MSFS (yet - CFS4 anyone?). A newsletter this week from 1C Game Studios (that makes theIL2 Great Battles series) makes it very clear that they know where we are this week 🙂

 

 

9 minutes ago, mazex said:

I really am feeling bad about the teams at Laminar and Lockheed that for many years has kept this hobby alive. Lockheed has some other sources of income so not so much for them naturally.

Don't feel bad... Both sims will survive. You're forgetting X-Plane has been around for years and has survived as a niche in a niche. They also have their mobile platform which is doing very well. Many users who don't run Windows also can't use MFS, so they'll be fine.

9 minutes ago, mazex said:

Sure - they have known this for a year, but I think that many of us after actually having tried MSFS realize that it really is game over for them.

I didn't get that impression at all. All can happily coexist.

3 minutes ago, mazex said:

For a year or two before complex aircraft are migrated they have a role to fill. But no third party developer will put down money on new complex content for P3D or XP unless it's easy to migrate from new MSFS models. 

I am not quite sure.

Maybe I get your post wrong, but

a. either you seem to assume that X-Plane 3rd party aircraft are conversions of P3D/FSX models,

b. or that X-Plane 3rd developers suddenly drop their knowledge, start to learn MFS SDK and create MFS models,

c. or that the X-Plane user base will shrinken in such a dramatic way that developing 3rd party addons will not be reasonable at all anymore.

 

For a, this is not the case, mostly Carenado and Just Flight an exception.

For b, while indeed some devs are checking if developing for MFS is possible (at least one has posted that in the x-plane.org forum a while ago), this would take a while to do properly.

For c, well -- I surely think that a number of users will make a shift from XP to MFS, but X-Plane has existed for a very long time in parallel to other sims, and I think this will continue.

Buying IL2 right now lol. Thanks for the heads up on the sale. Can't pass it up even if I don't play it anytime soon.

3 minutes ago, MarioDonick said:

I am not quite sure.

Maybe I get your post wrong, but

a. either you seem to assume that X-Plane 3rd party aircraft are conversions of P3D/FSX models,

b. or that X-Plane 3rd developers suddenly drop their knowledge, start to learn MFS SDK and create MFS models,

c. or that the X-Plane user base will shrinken in such a dramatic way that developing 3rd party addons will not be reasonable at all anymore.

 

For a, this is not the case, mostly Carenado and Just Flight an exception.

For b, while indeed some devs are checking if developing for MFS is possible (at least one has posted that in the x-plane.org forum a while ago), this would take a while to do properly.

For c, well -- I surely think that a number of users will make a shift from XP to MFS, but X-Plane has existed for a very long time in parallel to other sims, and I think this will continue.

a) No - I am aware that they are completely different. But if you do all the research, 3D modelling etc for an aircraft that you release in P3D you should have a good starting point to release it for XP?

b) The larger studios have signed up with MS since a long time and have been working on content for MSFS for quite some time. Their knowledge of building FSX/XP aircraft / modules must be of quite some use.

c) Well -  they must be losing quite a lot of pilots to MSFS now with all the "I have deleted xxx after the release of MSFS" posts here? How many newcomers will buy XP11 instead of MSFS at the same price next month? But I agree that if we have a big wave of new players into our niche they could benefit from that if they fulfill something that MSFS does not (like DSC and IL2). After we get complex aircraft and addons like fspassengers/Air Hauler etc released for MSFS by 3PD in a year or two, IFR navigation gets more love and VR gets implemented, I have a hard time understanding what that would be?

- If you where on the board of a 3PD - what would you say if the CEO insisted that the main focus for 2021 will remain on FSX and P3D, as that is where we see most revenue potential, instead of MSFS?

Laminar will survive, especially if they react to the situation and further tend to their niche of having a high performance simulator with excellent flight modeling. As Tony said, not everyone has a Windows gaming rig to do their flying on. For Mac users, X-Plane has been essential.

Who I'd be more worried about is companies who catered to the whole FSX/P3D weather add-on market.

I would have a hard time feeling bad for Austin Powers or Healy or whatever his name is.:)

Edited August 22, 20205 yr by Adrian123

Lockheed being a large company wouldn't think twice about laying off the P3D team if they thought they couldn't make money off of it anymore.

1 minute ago, Adrian123 said:

I would have a hard time feeling bad for Austin Powers or whatever his name is.

I agree that he seems a bit odd - but X-Plane is a nice product that has helped fill the gap since MS shut down Aces and this new project.

IMO, MSFS graphics accomplished in 1yr what Xplane has been trying to accomplish in 20+yrs of development. The strong will adapt and survive. I feel bad for Blockbuster and the touch tone phone. 😉

Maybe P3d will survive because they tried to do the right thing with TrueSky and their higher resolution terrain mesh (FS2020 mesh is terrible at this moment), but no news regarding the flight model, it is old and not realistic, although PMDG, A2A and FSLab did a good work. But it will be a long and hard trip for LM.

No comment about Xplane.

A hypothetical CFS4 could be welcome, a new combat sim with the same FS2020 graphics, live weather, flight model and terrain (with better mesh), should be a killer sim regarding a 1914-1945 historic period. 

I remember the first version of Rise of Flight by NeoQ, it was astonishing about the graphics and the flight model. Also, Cliffs of Dover by our beloved Oleg Maddox did a wonderful sim with a lot of potential (and bugs), but someone bought it and preferred to make it different and with a not so good and cartoonish graphic engine (but very good in VR).

There main market is also "Professional"

I don't think so. There's room for more than one simulator platform in the market and some competition is good to encourage further development and progression!

We were never the target market for Lockheed anyway. That argument has been made ever since version 1 of P3D. We just found ourselves adopting it because at the time it was the natural step if you wanted an updated FSX (which essentially is what it is).

Honestly from the interviews and stuff I've seen from Austin of Laminar, I don't think he cares too much either. He's admitted himself that he created XPlane primarily as a tool for testing new airfoils and ultimately I think in his eyes that's what it still is to him. The fact that it's sort of evolved into another mainstream flight sim platform is sort of a by-product in a way. He also has so many other projects and sources of income that I don't think he'll take too much of a hit. But really I think the presence of MSFS on the market is a good thing, as if they want to stay competitive then it'll drive them to develop their products further.

Don't know about P3D, but I don't think LM should really care about it that much - they have their own market...

As far as X-Plane and other flight simulation platforms go, including combat flight simulation to where I have derailed for quite a few years because of the lack of quality in civil flight simulation flight dynamics modeling, I really think Laminar Research is exactly where it has always been, and shouldn't really fear the competition because, mostly, it's not really competition ...

LR will keep offering features that MFS can't cope with such as the cross-platform, details and tools allowing for their use regarding design of aircraft of all types, including some really unique variants that one can actually model in X-Plane, etc...

Of course I do like MFS, a LOT, although using it to it's best will force me to do a rig upgrade, which I am not ready to do right now. I do see the potential in MFS, I strongly believe the support provided by the developers and 3pds will make it grow fast and nice, creating a trully amazing flight simulation platform, but I will keep using X-Plane as well at least while it provides tools ( like Plane Maker and Airfoil Maker ) and ease of use and good performance in my rig.

There is easily room for all and no need to try to mentally kill the competition to try to fit our own mindset...

1 hour ago, Claudius_ said:

A hypothetical CFS4 could be welcome, a new combat sim with the same FS2020 graphics, live weather, flight model and terrain (with better mesh), should be a killer sim regarding a 1914-1945 historic period. 

I remember the first version of Rise of Flight by NeoQ, it was astonishing about the graphics and the flight model. Also, Cliffs of Dover by our beloved Oleg Maddox did a wonderful sim with a lot of potential (and bugs), but someone bought it and preferred to make it different and with a not so good and cartoonish graphic engine (but very good in VR).

Mmm, I was there in the NeoQB days as well. And feeling the agony when Oleg overstretched his ambitions with Cliffs of Dover. A community effort took ever the CoD code base and the latest version was a DLC for Cliffs of Dover released a week ago with "Desert Wings - Tobruk". It also updates Cliffs of Dover to version 5. Really worth checking out and Cliffs of Dover actually works now after the efforts of the Team Fusion team. Not cartoonish in any way. But that is really trying to keep the old CloD alive - the real IL2 these days is IL2 Great Battles (called IL2 BoX as the modules are called IL2 Battle of XXX)

So the IL2 moniker after Oleg unfortunately had to go after the financial failure of Cliffs of Dover was taken over by the NeoQB team that was renamed 777 studios and bought by 1C studios. So the new IL2 Great Battles series that started with IL2 Battle of Stalingrad is actually the Rise of Flight engine that is now used for WW2. They have released many new modules over the years and continuously work on improving the core engine. I did not like their first attempt with Battle of Stalingrad that much - but a LOT of water have flown under the bridges since then and I really like BoX now. The flight modelling is really good now - and as you say VR is great in IL2 BoX.

The latest module in the BoX series is Battle of Bodenplatte that includes a lot of iconic US and UK planes like the P-51, P-47, P-38, Spitfire Mk IX, Tempest etc: 

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/battle-of-bodenplatte/

The next announced module is Battle of Normandy where we get the Mosquito, Typhoon, Spitfire Mk XIV etc. Sure - they are not study level aircraft as the focus is on air combat - but they are very nicely modeled. There is a big sale now so you get one of the modules real cheap to try it. They all use the same core version that gets updates all the time but adds maps, campaigns, missions and aircraft.

Realized that this is confusing so lets try a timeline:

The IL2 Cliffs of Dover tree:

Maddox Games, having done the epic original IL2 1946 since 2000, releases "IL2 version 2.0" called IL2 Cliffs of Dover. It is released way to early by publisher Ubisoft and fails with lots of bugs -> Maddox Games defunct -> Team Fusion modders keep Cliffs of Dover alive -> In 2016 1C games owning the Cliffs of Dover code base gives access to the source code of Cliffs of Dover to Team Fusion -> Ciffs of Dover Blitz released on Steam (the Team Fusion mod version of CloD) -> August 2020: Desert Wings Tobruk released as DLC for Cliffs of Dover Blitz 

 

The "new" IL2 Great Battles tree:

NeoQB releases Rise of flight -> Renamed 777 Studios -> 1C buys 777 Studios after Maddox Games failure with IL2 Cliffs of Dover -> 777 Studios releases IL Battle of Stalingrad on an upgraded version of the Rise of flight code base -> IL2 Battle of Moscow -> IL2 Battle of Kuban -> IL2 Battle of Bodenplatte -> (in production IL2 Battle of Normandy)

 

So - both IL2: Cliffs of Dover Blitz and IL2: Great Battles are owned by 1C but they are completely separate projects and code bases. And the team and player base for IL2 Great Battles is 10 times as large even though the enthusiasts in Team Fusion has done an impressive work trying to fix the old CloD code base.

 

 

Edited August 22, 20205 yr by mazex