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Update from PMDG

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2 hours ago, WestAir said:

I wish some other FS Companies would take PMDG's lead and wait. I've been really disappointed in some companies that have built half-baked products for MSFS2020 instead of waiting and releasing something of their usual quality.

Thankfully, it seems that those which REALLY matter - at least to me - like FSLabs, HiFiSim, Majestic, Leonardo, FSDT (for GSX, scenery is another matter) have chosen to do exactly so. And I can wait, too.

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Cheers, Søren Dissing

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26 minutes ago, Garys said:

Would it therefore not be expected that with the release of a new flight simulator that is for ENTERTAINMENT that a decrease in price would accompany it as those reasons no longer apply? 

Indeed, and that's why it's not $300. 😉

28 minutes ago, Garys said:

Clearly PMDG has seen over the past few years what the market will pay and has priced the development aircraft for the new sim accordingly. Its not about whether its a sim or a game, but it does make you wonder if the reason all those years ago was nothing but BS doesnt it?

Not really. I didn't pay attention to the reason then, and I don't care what the reason is now. As long as the reason isn't "I want more money so I can afford an assault rifle and shoot up a mall" then it doesn't really matter why the price is what it is. If you can afford it and are willing to afford it, buy it. If not, don't. 

I can't bring myself to fault PMDG for charging what they can make, even if I'd rather it be a lower price. I just sold an old car. A kid wanted me to knock $1,000 off. I didn't, and ended up selling it to someone else. That doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me a person who wants to get as much money as I can for what I sell.

 

 

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2 hours ago, duckbilled said:

The only thing that will subdue speculation is if MS, Asobo, and major developers are fully transparent about their successes and challenges with implementing complex add ons. I'd like to see this: Bi-weekly live streams where Asobo AND a developer take questions from the community. First one should have RR and Asobo. 

Why do we expect MS, Asobo, and any other 3PD to hold "bi-weekly streams" so that "the community" can field questions to keep OUR imaginations from running wild and holding OUR expectations in check.  Aren't we expected to act like adults?  The updates we are getting from the developer currently are rarely matched elsewhere in the entertainment software industry.

I'm sure the World of Warcraft community is expecting bi weekly progress reports from Blizzard.  Or maybe the Fortnite community as well from Epic.  You must be joking.

At it's basic level, this is a piece of entertainment software.  Because we are "playing pilot" doesn't make us any more high and mighty than those who "play dragonslayer", "play platform jumping plumber" or "play special ops team member".

I love that we have a vibrant community.  But to say that we have an inflated sense of our own worth is an understatement.  Our community exists for our own good, to benefit our own enjoyment.  We rely on these companies to help enhance our experience not the other way around.  If Flight and FS World has taught us one thing, is that if we don't support a product, it gets pulled.  And we're the ones who suffer for it.

MS, Asobo, PMDG, LatinVFR, FSDT, et al.  don't "owe us" a thing.  They create a product, we buy it.  $$$ changes hands. Transaction over.  Just because you buy a bunch of scenery from FSDT or planes from PMDG doesn't mean they owe you a debt of gratitude.  You didn't "give" them your money.  Your purchased a product, nothing more, nothing less.

In my honest opinion it's time we start climbing down off the pedestal we've placed ourselves on.

Edited by wthomas33065
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1 minute ago, eslader said:

I can't bring myself to fault PMDG for charging what they can make, even if I'd rather it be a lower price. I just sold an old car. A kid wanted me to knock $1,000 off. I didn't, and ended up selling it to someone else. That doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me a person who wants to get as much money as I can for what I sell.

And that's the point. Just because you personally don't have a problem with what they charge or ignore the reason why that price point came to be, it doesn't mean other simmers can't look back and question the new pricing model.

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3 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

Why do we expect MS, Asobo, and any other 3PD to hold "bi-weekly streams" so that "the community" can field questions to keep OUR imaginations from running wild and holding OUR expectations in check.  Aren't we expected to act like adults.  The updates we are getting from the developer currently are rarely matched elsewhere in the entertainment software industry.

I'm sure the World of Warcraft community is expecting bi weekly progress reports from Blizzard.  Or maybe the Fortnite community as well from Epic.  You must be joking.

At it's basic level, this is a piece of entertainment software.  Because we are "playing pilot" doesn't make us any more high and mighty than those who "play dragonslayer", "play platform jumping plumber" or "play special ops team member".

I love that we have a vibrant community.  But to say that we have an inflated sense of our own worth is an understatement.  Our community exists for our own good, to benefit our own enjoyment.  We rely on these companies to help enhance our experience not the other way around.  If Flight and FS World has taught us one thing, is that if we don't support a product, it gets pulled.  And we're the ones who suffer for it.

MS, Asobo, PMDG, LatinVFR, FSDT, et al.  don't "owe us" a thing.  They create a product, we buy it.  $$$ changes hands. Transaction over.  Just because you buy a bunch of scenery from FSDT or planes from PMDG doesn't mean they owe you a debt of gratitude.  You didn't "give" them your money.  Your purchased a product, nothing more, nothing less.

In my honest opinion it's time we start climbing down off the pedestal we've placed ourselves on.

MSFS can be a very expensive title, and I think the bar is much higher for it than it is for something like Fortnite or World of Warcraft. People invest $1,000s in hardware and software, so I think it is reasonable for us to use the power we have to make the product better in a collaborative way. If our opinions don't have value, why are you bothering to post your opinion? Why should Asobo even engage the community at all? They should close the forms. Stop the communication. Who needs status updates? The check is cashed; like it or leave. Time to move on to other titles. The thing is, they are listening. I'm just asking for a lot more transparency around the way that 3rd party content will be implemented. More communication helps them control the narrative rather than having 1,000 duckbilleds out there making assumptions. It's not like I'm the only one questioning how things are developing, and you comment makes it sound like I'm a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

You don't have to join me in this quest, but please don't rain on other's parades. If the enthusiast community is outspoken enough for real change to be achieved, everyone will benefit - you, me, gamers, enthusiasts, Asobo, Microsoft, 3rd parties, and everyone else in between.

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6 minutes ago, duckbilled said:

MSFS can be a very expensive title, and I think the bar is much higher for it than it is for something like Fortnite or World of Warcraft. People invest $1,000s in hardware and software, so I think it is reasonable for us to use the power we have to make the product better in a collaborative way. If our opinions don't have value, why are you bothering to post your opinion? Why should Asobo even engage the community at all? They should close the forms. Stop the communication. Who needs status updates? The check is cashed; like it or leave. Time to move on to other titles. The thing is, they are listening. I'm just asking for a lot more transparency around the way that 3rd party content will be implemented. More communication helps them control the narrative rather than having 1,000 duckbilleds out there making assumptions. It's not like I'm the only one questioning how things are developing, and you comment makes it sound like I'm a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

You don't have to join me in this quest, but please don't rain on other's parades. If the enthusiast community is outspoken enough for real change to be achieved, everyone will benefit - you, me, gamers, enthusiasts, Asobo, Microsoft, 3rd parties, and everyone else in between.

World of Warcraft requires a yearly investment of at least $180 a year just for access.  By 2014 they had over 100 MILLION registered accounts.

Not one flight simulation product has required a subscription.  And people invest 1000's of dollars in hardware and software to play any AAA game out there.  Do you really think NVidia is coming out with the RTX 3090 because of Flight Simulator?  Uh, probably not. 

Witcher 3 sold over 12 MILLION copies for the PC's  By comparison FSX sold just over a million copies by 2008.

It is estimated that MSFS will sell 2.27 million copies in the next 3 years.  Just a little shy of Witcher 3's numbers.  And the advanced press for Cyperpunk 2077 is off the charts.

GTA V?  120 MILLION copies.  Minecraft 180 MILLION copies.  Super Mario Bros?  48.2 MILLION.

To say that Flight Sim is a niche product is a gross understatement.  

I am grateful that Asobo and MS are even providing Weekly updates.  It's unheard of.  But to expect them to provide even MORE transparency to keep our own expectations and assumptions in check seems to come from a greatly exaggerated sense of our own importance,.

Maybe it's more reasonable for us and 1000's of like us to give our input through the existing channels and let them do their jobs and then be responsible for our own actions and our own assumptions.  And we can start by understanding that while 2.27 Million copies of Flight Simulator 2020 is unprecedented in Flight Simulation sales, it is merely a drop in the bucket compared to other titles.

That dose of humility might serve us well.

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1 hour ago, Garys said:

it doesn't mean other simmers can't look back and question the new pricing model.

It also doesn't mean the rest of us can't roll our eyes when you do. They're a business. They can set any price they want. They're not ripping anyone off. They make it quite clear what you're getting when you buy, and then they deliver it - unlike some other 3pd's in the flight sim world which claim things like "fully-simulated avionics" and then deliver broken junk. 

If they're too expensive for your taste, that's legitimate. Questioning their ethics because they have the gall to charge what people will pay is not.

 

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The economist term is "utility".  Strange word for personal value.

 

Personally in the past I've shelled out a pretty penny for PMDG's products, and enjoyed using them, (at the time I was cash rich, time poor).  I gained enough enjoyment/utility out of the product to make it worth my while, then.

 

Now I'm doing the same cost/enjoyment sum with hindsight and I can't see me doing it again as I'm having a whale of a time in a little 25 quid Mooney.

 

Perhaps in 6 months I'll get the urge to spend a couple of hours watching Netfilx, occasionally pretending to ask ATC to let me up or down my FL - (them winds aloft are killing my fuel economy,) but not yet.  $140 bucks worth of not yet.

 

Your own mileage may vary.

 

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35 minutes ago, eslader said:

 Questioning their ethics because they have the gall to charge what people will pay is not.

Nobody has questioned their ethics... that's all in your head. What has been questioned is the new pricing model being the same as the current legal liabilty pricing for an upcoming entertainment product .Lets call it inflation.

If your happy to pay that no questions asked then so be it. Enjoy the wait

Edited by Garys

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39 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

That dose of humility might serve us well.

 

39 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

And we can start by understanding that while 2.27 Million copies of Flight Simulator 2020 is unprecedented in Flight Simulation sales, it is merely a drop in the bucket compared to other titles.

Quite frankly I am totally blown away at how good MSFS is already, canned, right out of the download.  I'm going to venture a guess a whole lot more copies will sell especially as it debuts on Xbox.  Further, unless LM pulls a very big photogrammetried rabbit out of a hat, most users there will hop right on over to MSFS as it continues to mature.  


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19 minutes ago, Garys said:

Nobody has questioned their ethics... that's all in your head.

And then you say...

19 minutes ago, Garys said:

What has been questioned is the new pricing model being the same as the current legal liabilty pricing for an upcoming entertainment product

Which is another way of saying "they either lied before or they're taking false advantage now," which is also known as questioning their ethics.

 

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12 minutes ago, eslader said:

And then you say...

Which is another way of saying "they either lied before or they're taking false advantage now," which is also known as questioning their ethics.

 

Your using ethics in the wrong context as it relates to this topic and thread. As I said earlier, Enjoy the wait. 

Cheers

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23 minutes ago, eslader said:

Which is another way of saying "they either lied before or they're taking false advantage now," which is also known as questioning their ethics.

I can’t speak for Garys, but this piety is a little confusing to me. RSR said the reason they were hiking prices on the P3D product line was because, as a “professional” product, their liability (and support) costs were higher than for an “entertainment” product. That’s a factual statement that’s either true or not. Earlier in this thread, you said they can charge whatever they want and it doesn’t matter what justification they give. To make sure I’m understanding you right, are you then saying that, even if RSR knew that his statement about higher legal expenses for P3D was categorically a lie, that wouldn’t be an ethical issue? Because that doesn’t make any sense to me.

For the record, I suppose you can simultaneously accept that the original justification was true — their legal costs really were higher — and that their planned MSFS price is just a standard price hike, unrelated to the P3D price hike and justified by nothing other than maximizing profit. I’m not sure I buy it, but...

James

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1 hour ago, honanhal said:

To make sure I’m understanding you right, are you then saying that, even if RSR knew that his statement about higher legal expenses for P3D was categorically a lie, that wouldn’t be an ethical issue?

No, though I can see how you would think that.

It's entirely possible that RSR was truthful in his justification for the p3d price increase. It's also entirely possible that now, even though there isn't a "liability" issue with the "game" that is MSFS, it's still reasonable to charge those prices, because things are more expensive today than when the first PMDG product for P3d came out.

That aside, I'm also saying it doesn't, personally, to me, matter what the justification for the price is. If it's a fair price in my estimation, I'll pay it. If it's not, I won't.

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