5 hours ago, mpo910 said:

Even if you do a existing airport complete over again incl lots of new features and visual enhancements 8 years after initial release for example, only 20% of the existing user do update (with fee)?

Exactly. And here somebody is suggesting the fantastic idea we should do that every time LM release a new version and tried to convince us users would be ok with by paying again for an airport every 2 years, even against this striking evidence of the contrary.

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by virtuali

4 hours ago, micstatic said:

But I suspect low sales for you were due to the fact the update came late and after many moved on to a competitors product.

Why we keep repeating this over and over ? Other competing airports has NEVER been a problem before, there are three versions of Zurich on the market, two JFK, two KLAS, two KDFW, why just KORD ?

- Because it was for P3D4 only.

- Because it came out AFTER MSFS has been announced.

Quote

May not be as nice as yours but good enough

Weren't P3D users high end users willing to pay for quality updates that every 2 year ? Now they become those that get the cheaper and "good enough" product ?

 

3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

The moral of this story? Create an airport that has not been done yet. I am sure that the AVSIM membership could list hundreds. My example would be EINN Shannon. I have been waiting for a decent version of that airport for a decade.

Been there, done that.

We made KMEM and KSDF, nobody ever done those before, and nobody will probably do them again in the future, none of them reached even sales of KORD V2 ( which was 1/5 of the original version from 2008 ).

29 minutes ago, virtuali said:

Exactly. And here somebody is suggesting the fantastic idea we should do that every time LM release a new version and tried to convince us users would be ok with by paying again for an airport every 2 years, even against this striking evidence of the contrary.

You did not read correctly what that somebody wrote :

if LM let the uses pay all over again every 2 years a developer could also do that when adding new features.

If you need several months up to 2 years to develop an improved version you probably would not update all airports then would you ? ....

I am curious about the larger airports sales in MSFS. With what ac are people flying to/from them : a Cessna ?

 

3 hours ago, Skywolf said:

I would suggest removing the v1 from sales for new customers that way only option is v2.  The  V1 download is there for existing customers.

You are missing the point. Is not that users buy V1 "by mistake" or to save money because it's cheaper, it's just that:

- Most of the ( big ) sales for KORD V1 were for FSX

- Most FSX users either stick with it, or just disappeared from the hobby. Just a *fraction* of them moved to P3D. However, it's not as if we should have continued to support FSX, KORD V2 won't even fit in memory with 32 bit, there's no way it could work there.

- Many FSX came back to MSFS, instead. And there are lots of new users too.

What people seem to miss here is that, before MSFS, the user base which once was almost 100% FSX, now became something like 1/3rd each divided between FSX, P3D and XP11, and this made more difficult to break even with any project, because supporting multiple platform surely adds a lot of cost and, the best you can expect is...the SAME sales you made 10 years ago, when FSX was dominant. Because users haven't increased.

That's what MSFS completely changed: for the first time in 14 years, we got lots of NEW users, but since it ALSO cut into the existing P3D and XP ( and FSX ) existing user base, now the situation for the "rest of the sims" it's even worse than before.

1 minute ago, GSalden said:

if LM let the uses pay all over again every 2 years a developer could also do that when adding new features.

Sure we could do that, there's no law that prevents it. It will just not work. Again, you'd imagine "everybody" would upgrade from KORD V1 to V2 after 8 years, but they haven't. And please, don't mention DD KORD, there's a DD JFK too, but it hasn't prevented almost *every* former user of JFK V1 to get the update, and KORD V2 is a *way* better upgrade than JFK V2. 

 

Quote

I am curious about the larger airports sales in MSFS. With what ac are people flying to/from them : a Cessna ?

We have already 5 airports out for MSFS, only 1 it's for GA and sales are visibly higher than the same airport in P3D, especially on the MS Marketplace. It's not really my place to question what users do with their airports, as long as they buy them, it's fine for us.

I can only guess that many users are happy with the default A320/747/787, the more advanced ones use the various freeware mod ( If Zibo is considered serious, why the A320FBW mod shouldn't ? ) and the rest is waiting for PMDG, or Leonardo.

Let's put it in a different way:

It's Black Friday 2021, PMDG just released the 737 for MSFS, if we are already outselling KORD V2 for P3D with the MSFS version *now* ( without airliners, without GSX, without docking systems, without active panels) , what do you expect to be happening next year, when we might have all these things ? A year will pass sooner than you think, I'm afraid...

18 minutes ago, virtuali said:

Sure we could do that, there's no law that prevents it. It will just not work. Again, you'd imagine "everybody" would upgrade from KORD V1 to V2 after 8 years, but they haven't. And please, don't mention DD KORD, there's a DD JFK too, but it hasn't prevented almost *every* former user of JFK V1 to get the update, and KORD V2 is a *way* better upgrade than JFK V2. 

 

We have already 5 airports out for MSFS, only 1 it's for GA and sales are visibly higher than the same airport in P3D, especially on the MS Marketplace. It's not really my place to question what users do with their airports, as long as they buy them, it's fine for us.

I can only guess that many users are happy with the default A320/747/787, the more advanced ones use the various freeware mod ( If Zibo is considered serious, why the A320FBW mod shouldn't ? ) and the rest is waiting for PMDG, or Leonardo.

Let's put it in a different way:

It's Black Friday 2021, PMDG just released the 737 for MSFS, if we are already outselling KORD V2 for P3D with the MSFS version *now* ( without airliners, without GSX, without docking systems, without active panels) , what do you expect to be happening next year, when we might have all these things ? A year will pass sooner than you think, I'm afraid...

Even if we look at things differently I surely wish FSDT a bright future like I wish that to other addon developers too.

Regarding complex airliners: you cannot have all eyecandy , the best weather , lots of AI traffic ( ac and cars ) and complex airliners and expect a complete smooth experience. The default airliners already cause stutters in the outside view when instruments are onscreen too...

Hopefully my Prosim 737 NG, which is running outside the app will be able to run without me seeing stutters ....

38 minutes ago, GSalden said:

Even if we look at things differently I surely wish FSDT a bright future like I wish that to other addon developers too.

Regarding complex airliners: you cannot have all eyecandy , the best weather , lots of AI traffic ( ac and cars ) and complex airliners and expect a complete smooth experience. The default airliners already cause stutters in the outside view when instruments are onscreen too...

Hopefully my Prosim 737 NG, which is running outside the app will be able to run without me seeing stutters ....

I don´t know if that assumption will still be counting 1 year from now Gerard. MSFS is developing rather quick and enhancing either quick. Performance gain are remarkable already. And that is DX11.  

I personally think, that within one year, they will be on DX12 and some performance gain will be possible with things like KI with nvidia and other smart techniques.

MS is making not only a pure flightsim, they are making a showcase project out of this. This would mean that they will hunt everything down till they are on Nr.1 with flightsim and some quite new techniques.

The "Project" and "Goal" behind MSFS is much bigger than we assume. For sure. 

It will take some time till PMDG, FSLabs etc, will be usable. But as soon as that is ready......I assume lots will jump over. Also 3 screens, home build cockpits will probably all come. IF this will be one of their goals, which I do not know. Also the already VFR market is so big right now. And why not flying the Stock A320/787 or even smaller ones into showcase big stunning airports? So much new user DO NOT KNOW BETTER at the moment they bought MSFS. Exploring the world is joy for those girls/guys! A lot to see, also within VFR!

It is too early to be sure what will happen.

But as a 3th party developer it is not clever to develop for P3D "only" AT THE MOMENT. Because if the "world" changes within 1 year....their already started "ongoing work" will be worthless.

Sure they will all develop on MSFS, as soon as they can. Others who can already are ongoing. They have so many new customers already. 

It´s us who do not jump because of some lacking addons and solutions to use our home build cockpits, VR or some extraordinary screen setups/beamers etc.! But we are a very small usergroup compared to what is already going on at MSFS! Maybe <2%!

So with our "niche" (MSFS view at the moment) requirements we will have to wait. Why developing niche as long as the BIG market is selling quit good. Or?

Of course @virtuali and "co" do what they can to increase income right know, but that will not be P3D for all. Some do, the bigger part 3th party will not. 

I do really understand this. It is a pity but it is the actual present situation. 

Guys ( @GSalden/ @virtuali) , just don´t take everything so personally! We are hopefully enjoying our hobby in common sense. On MSFS and/or P3D. If that will swap, we will see. It´s weekend! Relax, sit back and enjoy your flight 😉 

Marcus

 

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by mpo910

1 hour ago, virtuali said:

Why we keep repeating this over and over ? Other competing airports has NEVER been a problem before, there are three versions of Zurich on the market, two JFK, two KLAS, two KDFW, why just KORD ?

- Because it was for P3D4 only.

- Because it came out AFTER MSFS has been announced.

Weren't P3D users high end users willing to pay for quality updates that every 2 year ? Now they become those that get the cheaper and "good enough" product ?

 

I bought your ord again. Would do same again for jfk. In fairness I moved on with Las Vegas and fll. My comment about good enough was for others. I’ve basically bought most of your scenery. 

1 hour ago, mpo910 said:

I don´t know if that assumption will still be counting 1 year from now Gerard. MSFS is developing rather quick and enhancing either quick. Performance gain are remarkable already. And that is DX11.  

I personally think, that within one year, they will be on DX12 and some performance gain will be possible with things like KI with nvidia and other smart techniques.

MS is making not only a pure flightsim, they are making a showcase project out of this. This would mean that they will hunt everything down till they are on Nr.1 with flightsim and some quite new techniques.

The "Project" and "Goal" behind MSFS is much bigger than we assume. For sure. 

It will take some time till PMDG, FSLabs etc, will be usable. But as soon as that is ready......I assume lots will jump over. Also 3 screens, home build cockpits will probably all come. IF this will be one of their goals, which I do not know. Also the already VFR market is so big right now. And why not flying the Stock A320/787 or even smaller ones into showcase big stunning airports? So much new user DO NOT KNOW BETTER at the moment they bought MSFS. Exploring the world is joy for those girls/guys! A lot to see, also within VFR!

It is too early to be sure what will happen.

But as a 3th party developer it is not clever to develop for P3D "only" AT THE MOMENT. Because if the "world" changes within 1 year....their already started "ongoing work" will be worthless.

Sure they will all develop on MSFS, as soon as they can. Others who can already are ongoing. They have so many new customers already. 

It´s us who do not jump because of some lacking addons and solutions to use our home build cockpits, VR or some extraordinary screen setups/beamers etc.! But we are a very small usergroup compared to what is already going on at MSFS! Maybe <2%!

So with our "niche" (MSFS view at the moment) requirements we will have to wait. Why developing niche as long as the BIG market is selling quit good. Or?

Of course @virtuali and "co" do what they can to increase income right know, but that will not be P3D for all. Some do, the bigger part 3th party will not. 

I do really understand this. It is a pity but it is the actual present situation. 

Guys ( @GSalden/ @virtuali) , just don´t take everything so personally! We are hopefully enjoying our hobby in common sense. On MSFS and/or P3D. If that will swap, we will see. It´s weekend! Relax, sit back and enjoy your flight 😉 

Marcus

 

Here I have both P3Dv5 and MSFS. From what I have seen I keep saying that it’s all about balance : you cannot have it all.

So if you want all the eyecandy etc etc you cannot have complex jetliners and expect a smooth performance....

Hardware/software can only handle what they are able to .. There is no magic trick and only Asobo knows it ...

Just enjoy what you want be be realistic 🤓

6 minutes ago, GSalden said:

Here I have both P3Dv5 and MSFS. From what I have seen I keep saying that it’s all about balance : you cannot have it all.

So if you want all the eyecandy etc etc you cannot have complex jetliners and expect a smooth performance....

Hardware/software can only handle what they are able to .. There is no magic trick and only Asobo knows it ...

Just enjoy what you want be be realistic 🤓

Yes if course. But they still have not reached the boundaries by optimization to be still done yet. There is more to come for sure.....within 6 to 12 months we will see what can be done. I am sure performance will gain the coming months. And yes....still there will be limits. But they probably have less old ballast to carry compared to existing platforms. Lot is done on a actual and present bases. 

We will see. It will always be limited by hardware. Sure. 

I have also both. But 98% usage P3Dv5.1 and 2% MSFS at the moment. I do wait for VR. 22.12.2020....than I will compare them both with demanding VR usage. 

Marcus

3 hours ago, virtuali said:

Let's put it in a different way:

It's Black Friday 2021, PMDG just released the 737 for MSFS, if we are already outselling KORD V2 for P3D with the MSFS version *now* ( without airliners, without GSX, without docking systems, without active panels) , what do you expect to be happening next year, when we might have all these things ? A year will pass sooner than you think, I'm afraid...

Let's put it a different way. It's Black Friday 2021, PMDG posts a week prior that due to the still inadequate SDK, they are still a year away at the earliest.

Both scenarios can easily happen. Mine I bet stands a better chance. At some point, patience with MS/Asobo will run out. Nothing is off the table when it comes to MS and their ever changing business model. Asobo codes so long as mother MS wants them to.

 

Like to read some frustrated MSFS Users about the moving target.....MSFS instead of P3D as mentioned by Mathijs Kok?

Go ahead. There is NO difference between both sims when updated frequently, frequently there a defects and frequently add-ons are affected.

Marcus

 

On 11/26/2020 at 10:21 PM, GSalden said:

He is really open on things :

https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/157318-a-glass-of-wine-and-mildly-vindictive-ponderings/

With respect, but Mathijs his opinion I take it with grain of salt for a long time now 😉  it's always a bit colored... 

Nothing wrong with that, but fine for me to have that knowledge.

26 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

Like to read some frustrated MSFS Users about the moving target.....MSFS instead of P3D as mentioned by Mathijs Kok?

Go ahead. There is NO difference between both sims when updated frequently, frequently there a defects and frequently add-ons are affected.

Marcus

 

Imho the release version of MSFS with all its issues was the best regarding being able to fly...