Great topic!

Well , you count me as one of the  'us'.     I love the sim, but it seems any valid criticism can be classed as being negative and cantankerous by some.  But so what?  There are plenty of overly-positive fan-boys on here as well.  Both views are valid - so let them be!
One thing I don't get though is 'people complaining about the complainers', because the current the state the sim is in is mainly a subjective and personal view point.

But some people seem to want to belittle complainers and close then down.  This forum shouldn't just be an 'echo box' for people shouting about how brilliant the sim is; if people have valid issues causing them frustration, they need to be able to let it out, even if it does seem a bit over the top - (e.g. the sim is totally broken, Asobo are idiots etc.) - can't people see this is just frustration coming out?

I have identified one problem with the forum (forum users actually) that has caused issues lately, and I hope people recognise this, and show more restraint with their postings (preferably before the moderators have to intervene ).

I have noticed the threads are mainly divided in to four types: -

1. People excited about, or want to tell people about new updates, features, and add-ons (Absolutely great! - I love these posts).
2. People with problems that are asking for help. (Good - got to be a main reason for being here I think).
3. People who want to shout about how good the sim is, and how much they are enjoying it.  (Superb, and some shared experiences are really uplifting).
4. People who are not satisfied with certain things and want to complain and vent their frustration.  (Fine as well - I hear your frustration buddy).

It is 3 and 4 that are the problem.  When people do 3 and 4 they are normally looking for some kind of empathy or reinforcement, so they don't feel isolated in their feelings and experiences - and that's fine.

The problems arise when 3 and 4 get mixed in the same thread, when people try to belittle the complainers to make them feel bad or stupid, or likewise when someone starts a positive thread just for someone to go in and rain on their parade - I really wish more people would recognise when they are doing this and show more restraint. 

Certainly I am trying hard not to, as people who do this come across as dicks, and I am trying so hard not to be one myself   I for one am open for being told when I am being a dick, but then please don't try to belittle me if I want to complain about something causing me real teeth-grinding frustration in a sim that I love.   I think my viewpoint is fairly balanced, and shared by many - I do really love the sim and appreciate it is there - but sometimes, especially after the regressions during updates, it really racks me off! 

Finally, some people think it is alright to interject in the threads because their view is just as valid, and they want to challenge things - they see it as their right!   
Well with rights comes responsibility - you need to know when to use your 'free speech' and when not too.  I have never seen a single person change their opinion over something argued about in the negative / positive threads, and probably never will.  It just causes bad feeling. 

If you don't like a thread or disagree with it, maybe consider not interjecting, or consider what you are saying very carefully, otherwise it just all goes round in circles, gets moderated, causes bad feeling, and nothing is solved.  We are told there is an ignore button.  Personally, I don't think we should ignore anybody, and it is better just to skim over and not respond.  You have to be able to read different points of view and be able to tolerate them - but we shouldn't antagonise them or belittle them over their view - if you have nothing constructive to add, just move on!

Thanks to Kaosfere for raising the original post (probably because he felt he had to get it off his chest).  It is an important subject and needs talking about. I know he is well respected and has helped the community a lot (including me). 👍  

 

 

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by bobcat999

I have over 500 hours of time in MSFS (well, it claims I only have 400+ but we won't talk about that - hehehe).  I have never even considering going back to FSX.  Sure, there are some glaring issues but hey, I find ways to work around those (as many others do).  I'm working on setting up profiles for all my hardware, which can be frustrating (but once it's figured out, that means one less click with the mouse or tap of the keyboard).  I'm just in the sim to have some fun, make some virtual money (OnAir) and see some sights.  As long as I don't get repeatable CTDs, I'm quite happy.

2 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

The attitude here is the most negative and cantankerous I've seen in the community.

You are wrong, but what's new? Just read your last few posts in this thread and you too are as culpable as most of us who love to complain.

It's all good until it turns personal. That's when threads are shut down and posts deleted. Some are banned from posting when all that was needed is to give your opinion with respect.

Just remember that you too are part of this wonderful community, regardless of complaints or rants.

Have a joyous 2021.

34 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

The problems arise when 3 and 4 get mixed in the same thread, when people try to belittle the complainers to make them feel bad or stupid, or likewise when someone starts a positive thread just for someone to go in and rain on their parade - I really wish more people would recognise when they are doing this and show more restraint. 

 

Bobcat, love your thoughts. Your points are very relevant. Agree 100% with what you have written.

I would like to add to your summary an observation I've made repeatedly and as recently as this thread, resisting repeating myself about.

That is, how you (the literary 2rd person 'you', not specifically Bobcat) use/enjoy the sim and the way I (again, the literary 'I') use the sim can be quite different. So your definition of fun/enjoyment can be QUITE different than mine. Features not quite right for you may be hair pulling for me, and vice versa.

Please stop telling others to have "fun" if you don't know how they have fun. The world of flightsim experience is bigger then your personal flightsim experience.

This concludes my TED talk. 

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by yurei

13 minutes ago, yurei said:

I would like to add to your summary an observation I've made repeatedly and as recently as this thread, resisting repeating myself about.

That is, how you (the literary 3rd person 'you', not specifically Bobcat) use/enjoy the sim and the way I (again, the literary 'I') can be quite different. So your definition of fun/enjoyment can be QUITE different than mine. Features not quite right for you may be hair pulling for me, and vice versa.

Please stop telling others to have "fun" if you don't know how they have fun. The world of flightsim experience is bigger then your personal flightsim experience.

This concludes my TED talk. 

Well that is very profound Yurei, and something else I had not considered until you mentioned it.

After reading it carefully, what you have said seems perfectly correct to me, and I totally agree with it - it is another good observation about peoples different perspectives. 

Looking at it now, some people definitely make assumptions about what other people want from something (in this case, the sim), and this is another thing causing misunderstandings. 👍

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by bobcat999

15 minutes ago, yurei said:

Please stop telling others to have "fun" if you don't know how they have fun. The world of flightsim experience is bigger then your personal flightsim experience.

This ^^ 

1 hour ago, bobcat999 said:

1. People excited about, or want to tell people about new updates, features, and add-ons (Absolutely great! - I love these posts).
2. People with problems that are asking for help. (Good - got to be a main reason for being here I think).
3. People who want to shout about how good the sim is, and how much they are enjoying it.  (Superb, and some shared experiences are really uplifting).
4. People who are not satisfied with certain things and want to complain and vent their frustration.  (Fine as well - I hear your frustration buddy).

It is 3 and 4 that are the problem.  When people do 3 and 4 they are normally looking for some kind of empathy or reinforcement, so they don't feel isolated in their feelings and experiences - and that's fine.

This is a very astute observation, @bobcat999, and I thank you for sharing it with us.  (And for your kind words).  I think you are absolutely right, it's content of categories 3 and 4 that can be problematic.   And even then, topics like that are fine in isolation.  They become a problem when they reach the point of being guaranteed flashpoints that reduce the signal to noise ratio of the discussion.

I didn't so much write the original post to get it off my chest -- at least, no more than any person gets stuff off their chest by posting on a forum -- but to flag for the community something that I found confusing and upsetting.   I wrote a lengthy response to this which I then lost when I accidentally hit the back button on my browser, but what it basically boils down to was this:

I am not going to say that I have the right to have an explanation for why any thread was locked, because frankly I do not.   It's the admins' forum and they can run it any way they dang well please.  But I think we, as a community, do have a right to understand what is expected of us and how our actions will be judged.   This can be done through explicit statements, which I think is the best way, but to a degree it can also be accomplished by careful, consistent moderation, with explanations when the norm is differed from helping to prove the rule¹.

In this case, we have seen a lot of threads of category 4, to the point where at times there are multiple of them on the front page crowding out other, non-repetitive content that does more than simply shed heat without light.   In general, the moderators here tend to have a light hand, only intervening when things get heated, and on the whole I agree completely with that policy².  So, in light of that, it stuck out to me when a category 3 thread was abruptly locked, and without any explanation on the difference in handling from what we see for the category 4 threads.

Thus, given the lack of clear guidance on what is acceptable, I was wondering whether we were seeing a new policy or not, and if so, whether it would be consistently applied. (It may have been a bit smart-alecky, but I can be a bit of a smart-aleck, especially when I'm trying not to sound overly confrontational.)  And I wanted us, as a community, to talk about that, because while we, again, do not have a right to dictate how the site will be run, I think it's important for us to have something in the way of a consensus that the moderation team can use to guide their actions, or to ignore if they wish.

(We'll never have universal consensus, obviously, but it's definitely possible to take the temperature of the room in this way.)

I, frankly, really wish that threads that served no purpose other than to complain about the sim were locked, if not on sight, then when it was clear that they were going to become more of the exact same discussion clogging up the front page for no productive reason.  But if we're not going to get that, I think we also need to allow threads that are positive to stand, even if they, also, do not shed any light.  There shouldn't be a difference between the two.

 

1 hour ago, yurei said:

Please stop telling others to have "fun" if you don't know how they have fun. The world of flightsim experience is bigger then your personal flightsim experience.

This is a great comment, too.  I'll be honest, I've been guilty of being in the "stop worrying and have fun" brigade, and I shall endeavor to cut back on those particular comments, at least.  So thank you for phrasing that thought in that way.  I do think the main thrust of this thread is different, though.  🙂

¹ Fun tidbit:  "the exception proves the rule" didn't have an original meaning in the form that we colloqually use it of "that goes to show the rule is correct."   Its original legal meaning was to state that, even though a law is not explicitly stated, when there are exceptions to the rule given, they can be used as proof that the "implied" law exists.   That's the precise way I was using that phrase here.

² I have argued in the past that the moderators are a bit too willing to lock a thread that's become hostile when it's obvious that it's because one particular person is stirring the pot, and a less heavy-handed approach would be to just give the offender an Avsim timeout while letting the people who can behave continue their discussion.  And I continue to feel that way.  But that's orthogonal to the discussion here.

 

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by kaosfere

Well that's fair enough.   👍

I have never seen a positive thread shut down, only ones where people are complaining about the complainers, if that is classed as a positive thread. (do two negatives make it a positive? ).

Maybe there are too many negative and clickbait threads in the list, and I don't like to see it too much myself, as it is depressing, but maybe it is just a natural temperature check of where the sim is at the current time.

Perhaps we should all agree to just press the reset button on where we are, accept the issues, and all agree to give the guys at Asobo a little more time and support. 
If the feedback and response from them was just a bit better (not easy for a large corporate entity I know), I think it would make it easier for people to be a bit more understanding and patient.  I for one am looking forward to the next update. 

Any other ideas on how it could be better here - please let them out! 👍

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by bobcat999

I also wanted to take a moment to acknowledge @Alpine Scenery's comments, because you seem really upset about the terrain issues we've seen.    I really respect the work you've put into the terrain fixes, and your generosity in sharing them with the community without cost.  With all the time I've spent on various WT projects I can certainly understand two things:   how much effort something like that takes, and how incredibly annoying problems you're fixing can be when it seems as though they could be easily solved upstream.

On the whole I have been supportive of Asobo on these forums, but I've also acknowledged the obvious flaws where they exist.   You're correct -- everyone is correct -- when they note that we keep seeing new problems popping up.   It at times feels like the old "one step forwards and two steps back".  Heck Asobo themselves publicly acknowledge this, and they've told the community they're working on implementing a more open test program soon.

And yes, the issue you obviously care so much about may well be easily fixed, and it may seem like a gross oversight for it not to have been fixed.  Everyone has a right to really care about something, and to be upset when it's not right.  But I think a little perspective is necessary when you regard the situation.  Because while you have that one thing that could easily be fixed, and it's infuriating to you that it's not...  Joe has his own particular problem he feels the same way about.  And Bob.  And Sally and Sue.

Everyone's "easily fixed" problems add up to become one giant problem, and they can't fix everything for everyone at once.  This flight sim is an astoundingly huge project, and while there are obvious flaws, and at times I'm frustrated too, in general I am amazed by how well it does work at this point.  When this sim shines it shines like a super-nova, and there is so much potential here it's exciting.  And, trust me, Asobo do care and are working as hard as they can to fix things -- the community know that we've been talking to them, and I believe this firmly.

But they need time as they keep chiseling away at things.  Believe me, I've done some ranting of my own in private channels about things that it seems would be so easy to fix.  It comes of frustration that something I care deeply about is broken.  But I try to keep in mind that they can't fix everything at once, and they are working as hard as they can to make things better.  And that helps ease my frustration, and makes it a little bit easier to wait until my particular problem gets through the backlog.

And I hope that can help ease your frustrations a bit, too.

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by kaosfere

TBH the major reason I am happy with the sim is I am easily entertained 😄  I am like a kid with a new toy.

I spent most of new years day trying to get the Bleriot XI Azani powered RIP variant off the ground consistently. I now only crash one time in three and at least one time in three get off the ground after a few wobbles vaguely on runway heading (the remaining time I get into the air successfully at roughly 90 degrees to runway heading just missing a few hangars and a fence).  The issue btw seems to be you be either have zero rudder authority or way too much and nothing in between, and the work around seems to be correct it with half second blips of full rudder rather than trying for any finesse.

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

And we are entertained watching you Glenn! 

6 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

I spent most of new years day trying to get the Bleriot XI Azani powered RIP variant off the ground consistently. I now only crash one time in three and at least one time in three get off the ground after a few wobbles vaguely on runway heading

Respect.  I have that thing and the RIP variant is a beast to fly.  I want to do the Alps crossing with it, but I need to find time to be able to fly in a straight line for more than 20' first. 😄

7 minutes ago, kaosfere said:

Respect.  I have that thing and the RIP variant is a beast to fly.  I want to do the Alps crossing with it, but I need to find time to be able to fly in a straight line for more than 20' first. 😄

Once it is in the air it is not to bad though you seem to need to keep your airspeed up and definitely initiate any turns with rudder rather than stick. Gusty winds and turbulence can ruin your day though 😄

Does the Anzani version even climb high enough to get over the alps ?

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

3 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Gusty winds and turbulence can ruin your day though

Yes, but on the other hand, it's one of those that can be really entertaining to fly directly into a 30kt headwind.

Edit:  As long as you didn't actually want to get anywhere.

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by kaosfere

1 minute ago, kaosfere said:

Yes, but on the other hand, it's one of those that can be really entertaining to fly directly into a 30kt headwind.

Edit:  As long as you didn't actually want to get anywhere.

I suspect the biggest issue with the Alps will be getting enough altitude with the Anzani engine.