Some AVSIM members just don't get it. The main reason why the sim is being updated and then broken and then updated again is because the community is staying on top of ASOBO like glue to ensure they stay in line with their own goals. If we don't speak up, they will never fix what they break or improve the sim. If you don't like reading about a broken sim, ctds, or request for improvements, simply ignore the thread and go on your merry way.

That's why the thread was closed.

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by DJJose

59 minutes ago, DJJose said:

Some AVSIM members just don't get it. The main reason why the sim is being updated and then broken and then updated again is because the community is staying on top of ASOBO like glue to ensure they stay in line with their own goals. If we don't speak up, they will never fix what they break or improve the sim. If you don't like reading about a broken sim, ctds, or request for improvements, simply ignore the thread and go on your merry way.

That's why the thread was closed.

absolutely some dont get it, i rather be a merry fly arounder, than a picky complainer.

guess who has to most fun?

1 hour ago, Alpine Scenery said:

You dont have money invested on the commercial side of things, nor time. I had provided my first few fixes at a great expense of time. It's already an incredibly tough side biz, but don't want more headaches. I am also paying another developer to help, and that isn't free.

I can tell you it was a lot more than $70, but not $80,000. I am looking at it long-term and was not originally worried about taking some initial losses, but I'm starting to 2nd guess it.

I understand. 

But I can only look at this from a consumer perspective. 

I'm  enjoying this game. If the enjoyment stops, I'll work on getting my steam game backlog reduced. 

12 minutes ago, wim123 said:

absolutely some dont get it, i rather be a merry fly arounder, than a picky complainer.

guess who has to most fun?

Pointing out a deficiency doesn't change the enjoyment, and for some of us, we're spending lots of time trying to workaround these issues. There are some people that can take mortar fire without complaining, and originally I was defending the process, but after 3 mortars to the head...

 

3 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

Who is this "us"?

There are literally hundreds of MSFS-related videos posted on Twitch and Youtube every day, with people enjoying the sim. 

Since the release of MSFS I've been playing more than I ever have in the past 10 years. 

Us is many people, read the forums.

Also, I am not saying the game is not enjoyable but we can (and must, until there's room for improvement) enjoy and criticize at the same time. Otherwise we will remain with the stutters, the mesh spikes, the water creeping on the coastlines, the photogrammetry cities of a totally different color than the surroundings, the AP broken, etc.

11 minutes ago, MrFuzzy said:

Us is many people, read the forums.

Also, I am not saying the game is not enjoyable but we can (and must, until there's room for improvement) enjoy and criticize at the same time. Otherwise we will remain with the stutters, the mesh spikes, the water creeping on the coastlines, the photogrammetry cities of a totally different color than the surroundings, the AP broken, etc.

 

Being members of a few forums though, I would say the general attitude is overall more negative here than in a lot of other places and in some cases approaching entitled.   

1 hour ago, Alpine Scenery said:

You dont have money invested on the commercial side of things, nor time. I had provided my first few fixes at a great expense of time. It's already an incredibly tough side biz, but don't want more headaches. I am also paying another developer to help, and that isn't free.

I can tell you it was a lot more than $70, but not $80,000. I am looking at it long-term and was not originally worried about taking some initial losses, but I'm starting to 2nd guess it.

You rightly spoke of the time invested by third party devs. I will add that most of us are serious simmers. I mean people who have made flight sim a core hobby, some for a long time. This is another kind of investment, intellectual (?) investment, because we cannot fly in real life. We play a RPG or a shooter now and then but flightsimming is a constant.

MS & Asobo have  opened great hopes in this community, some fulfilled, but brought also a lot of frustrations. We are not going to let them go off the hook like that. Because we are serious simmers, because this sim has already shown  a great potential, because we now have doubts about the after release management.

Here's my thoughts...(from a simming veteran I'd like to think haha)

 

The sim is now in a better state than it was during initial release.  I'm liking what I see but net forward progress is slow.  They'll add some features but break existing ones with an update.  There are some incredible features and a lack of features which were present in previous editions.  A prominent one that is important to me: taxiway signage.  It drives me bonkers that something so basic and important is randomly generated and inaccurate compared with real world charts.  Yes I understand taxiway names and layouts change.  But at least have accurate data for release time period.  

On the flip side, many default smaller airports are really well done...vastly better than anything from FSX days.

Another example of an incredible feature: weather and clouds.  Wow.  Just wow.  It can look very believable.  Again it's kinda mind boggling though that Cirrus clouds are missing, or that real weather isn't very real (although I have seen improvement if you toggle clear skies then toggle live again once in the sim)

They have wonderful features but they don't do it all the way.  

I'd prefer a finished sim at the get go (and a finished SDK to allow developers to really make it shine).

The way they implement these patches truly does appeal to the "I want it now generation."

I'd love to see a beta update system where you can opt in and not necessarily wreck your addons with each update.  Say a beta update each month and a firm release every three.

1 hour ago, MrFuzzy said:

Us is many people, read the forums.

I am a member of/read most of the major flightsim forums, plus many of the major discords. The attitude here is the most negative and cantankerous I've seen in the community.

Reality check, let's appreciate what we have now. We have been dreaming day and night to have a sim that uses modern technology and a real gaming engine (for instance MSFS uses Forzatech engine). Asobo and Microsoft have been open with us, talking with the community with regular Q&A and updates. Sure they have been breaking stuff in the their updates and they know that, right? jörg mentioned that in the last Q&A that they will have to introduce beta testing program in Q1 or Q2, so yeah let's see when this will come and then judge again.

 

 

I didn't lock the first topic, but will be happy to lock this one if things get out of control.  Vent your spleens, but do so in a positive way without bashing each other for doing so!  

23 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

I am a member of/read most of the major flightsim forums, plus many of the major discords. The attitude here is the most negative and cantankerous I've seen in the community.

I don't agree.  And it's not all negative, some of it is people voicing their concerns like me above.  And you'll find this happening on Discord, Reddit et Al.

There is a lot of good in the sim, no doubt, that's why it's so baffling when they do something like the mesh error and just never fix it. It's not that some obscure one-time issue that occurred, it was like all over the world and they still haven't fixed it, we're all using a mod. It's just odd, I've never seen that before is all, that level of complacency in something this big, or even if it were 100x smaller.

It's just a shocker...

My other hobby is hi-fi, I like listening to music.

A friend of mine had just bought a new amplifier, and he was so delighted with it that he wanted me to go listen to the new baby and exchange some ideas. I did, and it was immediately clear to me that the new amp did not sound so wonderful. So I said the usual: very good at low levels, maybe some more power would be adequate for this room, more efficient speakers and so on. In brief, I didn't say it sounded bad (it did, believe me). I said it could be improved but all in all it was already pretty good with the right kind of music, low volume, limited dynamic, and so on.

I lost a friend.

Why? Because he was so happy with it that he had lost objectivity and couldn't have anyone in the world telling him that his happiness was illusory. One of the last arguments was something like "this 1500€ amp sounds waaaay better than any 15.000€ amp I ever listened to". Just to give him a reference frame, I made him listen to a 100K hi-end set. He maintained his amp sounded better. I've never heard of him since.

On the other hand, that hobby is full of people who love to find defects in quite well sounding setups. It gives them the illusion of being real experts. It makes them live a more satisfactory life.

The final line is: we humans are very complex beings. We should accept each other with our shortcomings, never let our happiness depend on other people's opinion and always respect what others have to say: there is no need to judge everyone.

Just my 2 cents, but the analogy is  quite interesting.

Andrea

And it's sad that you lost a friend just because you two disagreed..

I was just talking to my coworkers this morning on this very subject.