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F737NG

Navigraph 2020 Survey Results out

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2 hours ago, F737NG said:

new potential market size

Problem is, we still don't know the real potential:

The SDK is not completed.

The survey is clearly telling you most MSFS are casual simmers at this point in time.

Users expending behavior is different, and your biggest competition is freeware which has fantastic support and quality in my view under MSFS.

Most users keep saying everywhere (here, Facebook, redit, etc.) they abandoned MSFS to come back to P3D /XP, I see this too with my addons stats..

The price shrink was incredible ridiculous in December, the biggest in percentage and in the short-term in flight sim history, this is an indication that selling the products long term is proving difficult for various reasons. Stop being blind about it.. It is how the market works for everything.

Time will tell, as usual..

S.

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You are right of course, they probably would not make the surveys public. That said, I still rather don't want to see Navigraphs survey. I think it's not reflecting reality.

For instance I believe that as much as P3D and XP are concerned a much higher percentage of simmers is using the sim frequently as this is suggested in the survey.

At all I'm surprised that no one doubts the content of this survey.

Karl


i9-9900K@5,0   |  32GB 3200  |  2080TI  |  4K 40" curved  |  MSFS | P3D V5

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36 minutes ago, kaha said:

That said, I still rather don't want to see Navigraphs survey. I think it's not reflecting reality.

If not Navigraph than who?

Who has the best understanding of this industry that is not driven by any direct sales of any sim, aircraft or scenary? 

Who has their finger on the pulse in these industry who knows the user and has historical data, present it in which you can compare and benchmark trends?

43 minutes ago, kaha said:

For instance I believe that as much as P3D and XP are concerned a much higher percentage of simmers is using the sim frequently as this is suggested in the survey.

I feel the same way and I think your right. However, that information will only come in real time from online services that can display users, use over time. I would not expect to see that in a survey since is its mostly collecting users input through a Q and A. There should be margin of error that you would find in any survey no matter who does it.   None of them are going to be 100%.

49 minutes ago, kaha said:

At all I'm surprised that no one doubts the content of this survey.

You have previous surveys to compare to and if you compare them with the events  (e.g. Release of MSFS, PD3 ver 5, X-plane 11.50, Vulkan, VR uses,)  that took place over the year, then you can feel with some confidence that the data is some what a refection of those trends that you would expect to see.

 

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It's interesting reading this thread here and the other one at the MSFS sub forums.  I think generally users find a positive result to support their approval of a certain sim.

I'm not even sure what a hard core simmer is...because, at the end of day, you're sitting in front of a screen (or maybe you have a VR headset).

But I'm an active real world pilot and using MSFS maybe 2-3 times a week for a wide variety of things.  I also used P3D v4 heavily and XP11 about the same frequency before the release of MSFS.  P3D is removed from my SSD and XP11 rarely is started.  

I'm happy users have so many options to choose from.  I also have no regrets spending my hard earned cash on numerous P3D (FSX) and XP11 addons over the years.

Edit: oh one more point I wanted to make.  I think Navigraph was the best option for creation of this type of poll.  They provide navdata for the three main Sims (ESP / XP / MSFS).  I do wonder though, if say, PC Gamer did a poll, how would the results change?

Edited by ryanbatcund
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|Ryan Butterworth|

| i7 4790K@4.4GHz | 32GB RAM | EVGA GTX 1080Ti | ASUS Z97-Pro | 1TB 860 Evo | 500GB 840 Evo Win10 Pro | 1TB Samsung 7200rpm | Seasonic X750W |

 

 

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1 hour ago, simbol said:

Most users keep saying everywhere (here, Facebook, redit, etc.) they abandoned MSFS to come back to P3D /XP, I see this too with my addons stats..

I can't confirm this from observing "everywhere". There are certainly "some" users who abandoned MSFS and returend to Prepar3d. However if they would represent "most" or even a large percentage, MSFS fora would dye out, and this is completely against my observation, just to the contrary.

Kind regards, Michael


MSFS, P3D Professional 5, AeroflyFS2, XP11; Beta tester of SimStarter, SPAD.neXt, and FS-FlightControl

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17 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

PC Gamer did a poll, how would the results change?

I always worry about content providers, magazine driver polls, because they can be depended on advertising dollars and reflect it in the results.  

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2 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

I always worry about content providers, magazine driver polls, because they can be depended on advertising dollars and reflect it in the results.  

You're saying you didn't like Navigraph being the poll provider because they have a financial stake in the FS market?  I'm just not sure who could do a quality poll that would include simmers of all platforms.  Avsim did one here a while back and "amazingly" XP was shown to have a very little userbase.  Well we know, of course, that most XP users spend time at xplane Org, and not here.  Same if you had done a poll there I guarantee the ESP userbase would be highly diminished compared to XP usage.  At least with Navigraph, there are numerous addons and standalone simulators which use their data.  So we can at least imagine that many users of different sims were aware of their poll and did partake.

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|Ryan Butterworth|

| i7 4790K@4.4GHz | 32GB RAM | EVGA GTX 1080Ti | ASUS Z97-Pro | 1TB 860 Evo | 500GB 840 Evo Win10 Pro | 1TB Samsung 7200rpm | Seasonic X750W |

 

 

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13 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

You're saying you didn't like Navigraph being the poll provider because they have a financial stake in the FS market? 

Where are getting that I "don't like Navagraph" from?

I am the one who thinks they are the best one for conduction these surveys. Read some of my recent post.  

I said content provider, magazine may likely depend on advertising dollars like the one you mention PC gamer. 

Navigraph is subscription service (not a content provider, magazine) provides a service of charts and fms data the entire FS market. Since they provide service to all the sims, they are less likely to favor any one sim over the other.

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18 hours ago, micstatic said:

  So how does Microsoft hanging with it long term?  At least in the past when they pulled out we still had the bones of the sim intact.  Now on a server them pulling out is massive.  I know I'm not the first to say this point.  But I think we could all agree it is a legitimate concern.  They are a business after all.  

Well if the areas that do not have photo textures are any indication of how it looks without streaming scenery, we all might as well stick with p3d. I have seen a few places, especially in the south pacific that MSFS currently does not have streaming scenery for...and it is FUGLY. The massive leap forward for MSFS is the scenery at the moment...without it...I would much rather fly the same area in P3D vs MSFS then.


Nick Silver

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6 hours ago, simbol said:

The survey is clearly telling you most MSFS are casual simmers at this point in time.

Really? Not just does the survey show this, it is "clearly" showing it? How? You made a fair point earlier about the dangers of over-reading the survey results, but this is going a lot farther than I did...I'm totally willing to buy that "most MSFS users are casual simmers." They probably are! But this survey is not at all telling you that.

Here's some data points from the survey that cast some doubt on the idea that most of the more than 50% of respondents who fly MSFS at least "sometimes" are "casual simmers." Simply put, the problem with that idea is that only a small portion of the survey respondents could possibly be considered "casual."

For starters: just 20% of respondents said "casual gaming/entertainment" was their main purpose for flight simulation. Ok, but maybe they just won't admit it?

77% have spent at least $200 on flightsim software/addons in the last year. Hmmm. Doesn't sound very casual to me!

33% of respondents switching to MSFS switchers switched from P3D, that famously "casual" flight simulator...

57% of respondents have rudder pedals. I have been simming for 25 years and I have never owned rudder pedals!

The fact is that the survey group actually represents essentially the "niche" market you've identified, not the much broader group of people who have touched any flightsim in the last year. Look at where respondents got the link to the survey: "Navigraph, illustrated at the bottom of the diagram contributed with the most respondents followed by Orbx, FSElite, and Infinite Flight." Do you really think these "casual users" are spending their time at any of these places, and then filling out a massive, time-consuming survey?

If you accept that you're already looking at a relatively "hardcore" (yes, this term doesn't really mean much on its own, but these people self-identify this way so it's useful) subset of people who answered the survey, then it follows that if 50% of them are using MSFS "at least sometimes" then most MSFS users identified in this survey cannot be "casual simmers." Does anyone here really doubt that if a survey looked at actual "casual simmers" (don't spend a lot on addons, don't own dedicated simming hardware, don't fly much, have never touched P3D, etc.) that MSFS would be overwhelmingly dominant in terms of what they use? (The question of whether this group are willing to buy addons at all is an interesting -- and totally separate -- one.)

Surveys like this one lend themselves to any number of interpretations. But I'm sorry, "most MSFS users are casual simmers" just isn't one of them.

James

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Hi James, no more I can say m8.. I expressed my views based on my experiences as developers. I retrieve to my cave respecting your opinion.

Bottom line, all platforms will continue development.. and we do not have a single market either.. 

S. 

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@simbol

Fair enough. You are certainly putting your money where your mouth is, which I have to respect. I still disagree, but you have the courage of your convictions. 🙂

James

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30 minutes ago, honanhal said:

 

Fair enough. You are certainly putting your money where your mouth is, which I have to respect. I still disagree, but you have the courage of your convictions. 🙂

James

Don't get me wrong, I am planning to bring stuff to MSFS when the time is right, as a business man you never put all your eggs in a single basket.. I want to grasp all the sides of the market, not just one.

S.

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