1 hour ago, BigDee said:

The difference is totally perceivable.  Just drag your window very fast from one side to the other.

Well let's hope so.  The next time I have the need to drag a window very fast I know what to expect.  Fortunately I don't have that urge when flying.  For what you get, you can't beat vsync to 30Hz.  Massive CPU and GPU headroom, effectively double, relative to 60.  Unless you have personally used vsync to 30Hz, it's all your guess.  I don't think anyone NOT LOOKING would see the difference while using MSFS or P3D.  When I watch movies at 24-30fps, I don't suffer either, even in fast-moving scene.  In real life when you turn quickly guess what you don't see clarity whatsoever!  You see....MOTION BLUR!!

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by Noel

50 minutes ago, Noel said:

Well let's hope so.  The next time I have the need to drag a window very fast I know what to expect.  Fortunately I don't have that urge when flying.  For what you get, you can't beat vsync to 30Hz.  Massive CPU and GPU headroom, effectively double, relative to 60.  Unless you have personally used vsync to 30Hz, it's all your guess.  I don't think anyone NOT LOOKING would see the difference while using MSFS or P3D.  When I watch movies at 24-30fps, I don't suffer either, even in fast-moving scene.  In real life when you turn quickly guess what you don't see clarity whatsoever!  You see....MOTION BLUR!!

I get that but once you are able to achieve smooth 60fps, it's truly amazing and makes a difference, for me anyways. And again, we are in 2021, we should expect a bit more than 30fps. 

V-sync to 30hz or 30fps may give smooth frames, by my god it looks awful. There is no sensation of flight. It’s like flicking one of those old cartoons that’s done sketch by sketch. Even 40 frames feels so much better, so, 60 is worlds apart. It’s so much smoother, it actually looks like flight....... of course this is all opinion. But there must be a reason why consoles are switching to 60fps, and they keep releasing higher HZ screens etc. Progress, simply because it’s better. 
 

Sure, you can fly at 30 frames and 30hz v-sync. It’s not bad. Bad would be 20fps.
It’s just no where near as good as 40-50-60fps. 
 

Anyways, go with what you’re happy with. 

Edited January 15, 20215 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

On 1/14/2021 at 1:14 AM, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Waiting for the first DX12 comment..... 😉

A lot of comment on Reddit is very bearish about the actual performance gains that DX12 will bring.

It is all relative and partly dependant on what you are doing.

For example some people will claim to see a difference even sitting stationary and unmoving looking at a a static scene. 

Which MAY be true for some people. They are not necessarily being elitist special snow flakes they may well actually see a difference.

In my workplace we have staff who find PWM screens unusable and others who cannot see what all the fuss is about. Not all people see things the same.

For ME PERSONALLY  in normal VFR flight in a Cessna or Bonanza or Jabiru, if I reduce the settings to maintain 60 without stutters,  I cannot see any difference at all between locked at 60 FPS or locked at 30 FPS.  In point of fact I actually lock my frame rate at 48 fps which is a third of my 144hz monitor rate and the minimum native refresh rate of my 144hz  screen (though I do use Gsync) , but that is mainly because that is what my 3070 tends to sit at anyway on 1440p ultra.

Which does not mean someone else doing crazy high speed aerobatics or simply being more sensitive to frame rates will not see a huge difference - it is just I personally DO notice the better graphics on the higher settings but am NOT really seeing a difference with the frame rates. other people may have a totally different experience.

I suppose with gsync off I might notice more difference but that is beside the point - different people see things differently and getting into forum arguments about it is no different to trying to tell someone their broken arm is not really as painful as they think 😄  It is what the individual personally sees and perceives that matters.

 

 

Edited January 15, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

2 hours ago, Clem116 said:

I get that but once you are able to achieve smooth 60fps, it's truly amazing and makes a difference, for me anyways. And again, we are in 2021, we should expect a bit more than 30fps. 

Have you personally seen vsync to 30Hz as a hardware vsync?  Presumably G-Sync is the same but I haven't used it so can't say w/ authority.  What I can say is I have used smooth 60fps of course as I have the capability, but the difference is so tiny to immaterial compared to the hammering on the GPU & CPU you pay for doing double the work effectively though probably not perfectly linearly.  So I've done exactly what you're doing, but always go back to vsync to 30Hz.  When the PMDG stuff debuts come back and let us know how it's going for you.  Has absolutely nothing to do w/ the year 2021 and it's this kind of comment that leads me to bring this up precisely because of the constant clamoring for 'more FPS' just like the original 'curious' post implied.  Not needed when you vsync to 30Hz so the question is largely moot.  Problem is, you very likely won't be able to maintain it in MSFS when the heavies arrive flying to the big metro terminals.  When I look out the window, pan the cockpit and out to the sides all I see is perfect, stutter-free smooth animation.   Of course at altitude it's almost like watching paint dry but even taxi and takeoff are totally smooth.  Free massive performance boost is what you get with this.

Edited January 15, 20215 yr by Noel

4 hours ago, Noel said:

Free massive performance boost is what you get with this.

"I dropped from 1080p to 800x600 resolution and now my performance is so much better, with no loss in visual quality! Free massive performance boost."

Just so you understand, that is what you guys sound like to everyone in this thread who CAN see a (clear as day!) difference between 60 and 30 fps or Hz.

By all means, if you think the tradeoff is a good one, go for it! But it's not a "free" performance boost. You're sacrificing half the frames and therefore half the smoothness. Weirdly, this discussion doesn't happen when we're talking about resolution. I don't run 4K, but if I could afford the hardware for it I certainly would. I'd never tell anyone I can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4K.

I actually find the difference between 30 and 60 most obvious when I'm panning around the cockpit pressing buttons or operating the FMC, since that involves moving the view around a lot, and often very quickly. Makes a big difference!

James

8 hours ago, honanhal said:

"I dropped from 1080p to 800x600 resolution and now my performance is so much better, with no loss in visual quality! Free massive performance boost."

Just so you understand, that is what you guys sound like to everyone in this thread who CAN see a (clear as day!) difference between 60 and 30 fps or Hz.

James

Has nothing to do w/ resolution Jame.  I understand some are sensitive to 30Hz v 60Hz, but w/ my hardware you can hardly tell any difference.  I don't know why, but I know it's neither my eyes nor visual cortex as their both perfectly fine.  I run the sim at 1440x3440 so your comparison is nonsense and does not apply in the slightest.  Have you personally viewed vsync to a hardware-based 30Hz capable display?  Have you?  Which model display? 

I guarantee you if you saw what I see, you'd stop the automatic contest.   I believe the vast majority of repliers to this idea have not seen what I see because absolutely, no matter what part of the sim I'm and no matter what I'm doing be it taxi/pan/fly it's totally smooth, liquid smooth, no flickering, no mouse lag, all good.  So when I say I have free massive performance boost that's exactly what's happening.  

Here's the boost I'm referring to.  As all settings are on Ultra w/ LOD at 200, 3440x1440, the peak frame rate in this setting is nowhere near 60fps, but you can see exactly what I'm referring to w/ regard to headroom or the lack thereof.  Note the mainthread at CPU16 is at 52%, vsync is off and it's running at peak frame rate it can generate, because it's GPU limited, which will be resolved when 3080Ti arrives for me.  But again, not the CPU and think PMDG:

Same setting, same resolution of 3440x1440, Ultra w/ LOD at 200, but vsync'd to 30Hz:

Visually, it's identical, except CPU load is roughly half, and GPU load reduced by 25% plus.  People pay $1500+ to get this much more out of their hardware.  I'm sorry for those who can't exploit this and I have to believe it's more the hardware itself, or in their belief (it's 2021) they ought to be able to run anything at 60Hz/60fps, or very likely this:  they've not even tried vsync to a 30Hz capable screen.   Honestly, how many naysayers here have personally used vsync to 30Hz?  I have to believe very few.  Why? 30hz capable screens I don't believe are the norm.  I lucked out when discovered my Dell 3415W was indeed 30Hz capable

If you can, try it for yourself.  I know I can speak from experience having done both. 

Edited January 15, 20215 yr by Noel

46 minutes ago, Noel said:

because it's GPU limited, which will be resolved when 3080Ti arrives for me.

What exactly will be resolved? You’re supposed to be gpu limited. Being cpu limited is bad for stuttering. 
And why get a 3080 if you’re gonna lock at 30fps? Maybe I’m missing something but it seems a complete waste, especially if, as you say, you all ready have loads of headroom... 

49 minutes ago, Noel said:

Same setting, same resolution of 3440x1440, Ultra w/ LOD at 200, but vsync'd to 30Hz:

 

You’re only viewing the total combined CPU usage here. You’re not looking at the main core. I too could have 20-30 % odd cpu usage, but the main core could be pegged up at 80-100%...... 

51 minutes ago, Noel said:

Honestly, how many naysayers here have personally used vsync to 30Hz?  I have to believe very few.  Why? 30hz capable screens I don't believe are the norm.  I lucked out when discovered my Dell 3415W was indeed 30Hz capable

Tried it, didn’t like it. Wasn’t fluid. 
Most new screens are not 30hz because..... Well why? Because they’re aiming for 120hz plus......I wouldn’t dare run my screen at 30hz. Turns it in to an eyesore (literally).

 

However if it works for you, good stuff. But this discussion is becoming circular now....... you like it, some do, some don’t. And that’s that. 

1 hour ago, Noel said:

I understand some are sensitive to 30Hz v 60Hz, but w/ my hardware you can hardly tell any difference.

Have you personally viewed vsync to a hardware-based 30Hz capable display?  Have you?  Which model display? 

Noel, Ian is right. This is now a pointless, circular discussion. Nothing you say will convince me that “you can hardly tell any difference” between 30 and 60 Hz, and nothing I can say will convince you that you can.

I have not tried a monitor limited to 30 Hz (as Ian says, they’re hard to find because they’re not really in demand) but 30 Hz is 30 Hz. Limiting your sim to 30 Hz or half refresh rate on a 60 Hz monitor has precisely the same effect. I see a significant difference at 30 Hz.

The resolution digression was an analogy, intended to convey to you how absurd it sounds to me and others to say that you can’t tell the difference between 30 and 60 Hz, so the performance gain at 30 is a free lunch. Anyway, I think we have to agree to disagree. Cheers.

James

I've been chasing technology since the Commodore 64 days. It has been a constant battle to keep up with advancements, within whatever my budget may have been at any one time. I have NEVER been able to afford whatever was bleeding edge (nor could I JUSTIFY the cost). I don't foresee that ever changing - at least until long after my time. We are trying to simulate reality. Quantum physics postulates that at some point in the far future (if we last that long) humanity may, in fact, be able to simulate reality as we know it. To the point that we will not be able to distinguish between the two. There will always be a difference between actually aviating, and simulating it in your bedroom. Even with it's flaws at this juncture, MSFS is a damned good piece of work.

2 hours ago, honanhal said:

Noel, Ian is right. This is now a pointless, circular discussion. Nothing you say will convince me that “you can hardly tell any difference” between 30 and 60 Hz, and nothing I can say will convince you that you can.

I have not tried a monitor limited to 30 Hz (as Ian says, they’re hard to find because they’re not really in demand) but 30 Hz is 30 Hz. Limiting your sim to 30 Hz or half refresh rate on a 60 Hz monitor has precisely the same effect. I see a significant difference at 30 Hz.

The resolution digression was an analogy, intended to convey to you how absurd it sounds to me and others to say that you can’t tell the difference between 30 and 60 Hz, so the performance gain at 30 is a free lunch. Anyway, I think we have to agree to disagree. Cheers.

James

Ok James, but it's entirely true--I don't see the difference and am super thankful for it.  I'm not trying to convince naysayers like yourself I bring it up to nudge others who might have the capability to try it for themselves and see.  I'm not alone either in this there are others who will tell you the same thing, others at it for a very long time w/ high end hardware.  If no one spoke but naysayers, and others like myself who absolutely are far happier w/ vsync to 30 than either unlocked or trying to maintain 60 by downturning detail and image quality sliders, while at the same time thinking about being able to accommodate complex planeware.  

6 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Most new screens are not 30hz because..... Well why? Because they’re aiming for 120hz plus......I wouldn’t dare run my screen at 30hz. Turns it in to an eyesore (literally).

 

The minimum refresh rate on most reasonable priced 144 hz screens tends to be 48 hz.  

Running 30 hz without gsync/freesync is going to work but without gsync or freesync enabled you are going to have issues at 30 hz on a screen that cannot go that slow, regardless of whether your GPU is struggling or you just have frame it limited with vsync.

Edited January 15, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick