3 hours ago, mikegrr said:

I don't believe that holding the yoke back aids in braking in MFS. I've tried it and it seems to have no effect in the 172 or any other MSFS plane. My pilot friends are very strong about saving their brakes, but not a factor in the sim.

Braking at high speed also risks doing this ...

 

 

Well this has turned out to be one of the most interesting and useful topics for some time - for me at least. 

Genuine thanks to everyone who has contributed with their experience!

In MSFS, I love flying the C152 (with the excellent community mod) and the C172 (steam gauge and glass, as the mood takes me). 

I don't know how accurate they are, as I have never flown, but my impression is, they don't seem too bad at all. 
I certainly find them enjoyable in the sim and easy to trim out once altitude and airspeed is stable.

One of the thing I have always struggled with its the reaction to the flaps (ballooning).  I always wondered how realistic it was, and this thread is very informative on that.

For me, I struggle to lose speed in the decent to the point where I can deploy flaps without ballooning too much. 
I always seem to be struggling to bleed the speed off so I can deploy the flaps at the proper speed. 
I am chasing it so much I am always deploying right at the top of the white airspeed indicator band.
I think maybe I need to make my patterns a bit longer. 

PS.  Watching Mister Avaition101 on YouTube, he seems to be counting 'one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand' etc. at flaps deployment.   Why is that?

36 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

 

For me, I struggle to lose speed in the decent to the point where I can deploy flaps without ballooning too much. 
I always seem to be struggling to bleed the speed off so I can deploy the flaps at the proper speed. 

Sounds like you are not slowing down early enough. You are doing the equivalent of approaching the turn off for your driveway at highway speed then trying to slam on the brakes and turn in.

Also make sure your circuit is wide enough, if you pretty much turn from downwind straight to final with no time actually on base heading your circuit is too tight.

You should be slowing down pretty much as soon as you pass the threshold. You need to be well in the white arc and maybe even have the first stage of flaps out by the end of downwind before turning base.  You should be turning from base onto  final in a Cessna around 500 to 600 feet and be maybe 5 knots over your final approach speed.

Note that different countries approach a standard circuit differently. I believe the English start descending on downwind whereas the Americans wait until turning base to descend ? Or the other way around? Cannot remember.

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

my homebase pattern is following in the PA28

liftoff: 53 kts
climb: 80kts
500ft AGL, pump off, landing light off

TURN CROSSWIND
- 700ft AGL , airport regulations

TURN DOWNWIND 
- moments after turn, I would reach 1000ft AGL, reduce pwr to roughly 2100rpm
-Radio transmit ( "RADIO STATION Z, *Callsign*, left / right downwind, rwyXX)

ABEAM THRESHOLD
- verify landing checks (fuelpump, mixture, carb heat, airspeed in white arc)
-1st stage of FLAPS
- Slow to 80kts

TURN BASE
-2nd stage flaps
- 75kts / 1700rpm

TURN FINAL (around 500ft AGL)
-3rd stage flaps
-70kts
- Stabilized at latest 300ft AGL
-Carb heat OFF (in case of GA)

Cross the numbers at 60-63 kts, power slowly to idle.

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by SAS443

1 hour ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Note that different countries approach a standard circuit differently. I believe the English start descending on downwind whereas the Americans wait until turning base to descend ? Or the other way around? Cannot remember.

I got taught to start the descent at the start of the circuit, i.e. from circuit height at the start of the downwind (usually 800 feet or 1,000 feet, depending on where I was training), you start descending, configuring the aeroplane and doing the memory checks for landing as you do that, so you'll have lost maybe 200-300 feet by the time you are turning base. Then after that first turn, get more flaps down and keep coming down another 200-300 feet or so. Then turn finals, get the last flaps stage out there, get it stable on speed etc, make sure the Dunlops are dangling, and Bob's yer uncle.

With sportier aeroplanes and when not flying a full circuit you can alter that stuff a little bit, but the gist of it is always something based around the above, at least it is here in Blighty.

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by Chock

30 minutes ago, Chock said:

I got taught to start the descent at the start of the circuit, i.e. from circuit height at the start of the downwind (usually 800 feet or 1,000 feet, depending on where I was training), you start descending, configuring the aeroplane and doing the memory checks for landing as you do that, so you'll have lost maybe 200-300 feet by the time you are turning base. Then after that first turn, get more flaps down and keep coming down another 200-300 feet or so. Then turn finals, get the last flaps stage out there, get it stable on speed etc, make sure the Dunlops are dangling, and Bob's yer uncle.

With sportier aeroplanes and when not flying a full circuit you can alter that stuff a little bit, but the gist of it is always something based around the above, at least it is here in Blighty.

Yeah in Australia we pretty much stick to pattern altitude until turning base,  This is a typical c152 circuit I flew back in December out of the marketplace version of YSPT on the QLD  Gold Coast:

 

 

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by Glenn Fitzpatrick

Sorry Glenn.  Based on your interaction with the ATC, I think I may have assumed your gender!  😆

A nice bit of weather there.  Live?

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by bobcat999

19 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

Sorry Glenn.  Based on your interaction with the ATC, I think I may have assumed your gender!  😆

A nice bit of weather there.  Live?

lol, I think the pilot avatar is young female and Asian/American but I am old, male and Aussie.   I tried a few avatars back when MSFS came out and randomly left it on whatever was last loaded (I think that one reminded me of Beni Ninagawa from the Wagakki Band)

It was probably live weather, the Gold Coast is often like that in live weather,  but it also might be the freeware scattered showers preset which sort of looks a bit that way as well, not sure.

I found the drag from flaps on most GA was much higher in MFS than it had ever been on FSX+P3D, which is more accurate?

3 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

PS.  Watching Mister Avaition101 on YouTube, he seems to be counting 'one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand' etc. at flaps deployment.   Why is that?

His plane doesn’t have a sliding flap switch with preset detents. In those you have to hold the flap switch down count however long it takes to move the desired amount. In those older Cessnas, it is about 3 degrees per second. 

1 hour ago, ckyliu said:

I found the drag from flaps on most GA was much higher in MFS than it had ever been on FSX+P3D, which is more accurate?

I personally find MSFS to do a better job in general with the changing balance of lift to drag as flaps are deployed. They still have some tuning to do, but overall I think they capture the "feel" better than predecessors. 

Flaps are classified as high lift devices...but lift always comes with the price of induced drag. Think about how flaps operate and it makes sense. Angle of attack is the angle between the wing chord line and relative wind. The chord line is a line drawn from the leading edge of the wing to the trailing edge. As you lower flaps, you are lowering the trailing edge (relative to the leading edge for that portion of the wing) changing the chord line and increasing angle of attack.  The greater the angle of attack, the greater the lift (up to a point - critical angle of attack) and, again because lift and drag go hand in hand, the greater the drag.  As you progressively lower flaps, you will reach a point where the increase in drag outweighs the increase in lift.  In a Cessna you really start to feel that after around 20 degrees of flaps.

Ideally, landing smoothly at the lowest possible ground speed just decreases wear and tear on your airplane. The increased angle of attack especially with flaps allows you lower the nose of the plane giving better visibility and steeper approach angles without gaining speed. Now is a steep approach angle necessarily what you want in an airliner? Probably not, but for your typical GA prop, yes...especially into a short runway with obstacles...you know, like a hill, trees or I don't know...maybe an SUV driving through the approach end of the runway. 😲

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by snglecoil

This is an awesome PDF document I found on the internet

http://leaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/All Site Files/Employee_Docs/Flight_School/Standardization_Manuals/Cessna_172S_Standardization.pdf

Page 35 on it has the pattern (for landing) with speeds and flap settings for landing with a diagram for the Cessna

Edited February 26, 20215 yr by Manny