Is PMDG indirectly snubbing P3D?

[micstatic 4,319]

21 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

So where is the SDK problem ? 

 

 

The SDK problem has already been discussed in this thread.  You are free to read back.  But the basics are lack of accurate real world weather/winds.  

[Gary1124 181]

One thing to bare in mind.

MSFS will never recieve training or academic credentials because of it's entertainment marketing. Once the kids get bored with it the market will rebound to serious simmers and pilots AND perhaps LM or Laminar does a similar graphics treatment with Googke Earth 

[Dominique_K 10,150]

17 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

A gentle reminder you’re on the P3D forum. Telling people who love this sim they sound insecure is not the wisest of words. There are a wealth of reasons I and plenty of others are perfectly happy with this sim. Not having to download gigabytes of data for a flight is one obvious advantage.

It’s a mature product that continues to evolve and has a huge number of 3rd party addons.

Feel free to discuss the merits of MSFS on the MSFS forum. 😉

A forum, not a chapel. Are you suggesting that we pray in our own church ignoring each other ? You don't, of course. It is so much more fun when simmers flying P3D come to the MFS forum and vice versa. And MFSers and P3Ders can agree on one thing anyway, these people flying X-Plane are really a bore 😁.

Seriously, PMDG announcement (and the way it is formulated) confirms a major shift which doesn't smell too good for P3D. I have said it on the MFS forum and will repeat it here, I truly wish to see P3D stay alive and well. I don't fly it anymore but MS has proven to be an unreliable company for us simmers and wishing P3D demise is a folly. But they truly have to move their behind for v6. Almost all the developers (real developers I mean developers who have released a product in the past, not pretended developer) that count came aboard the MFS train. We know why.  

P3D, a mature product ? Yep. But beware being mature is the gate of being old.  Don't we both know ?

Edited May 25, 2021 by Dominique_K

[Dominique_K 10,150]

5 minutes ago, micstatic said:

The SDK problem has already been discussed in this thread.  You are free to read back.  But the basics are lack of accurate real world weather/winds.  

Your vision of the thread and, specifically of the post I was responding to, is slightly reductive.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

33 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

A forum, not a chapel. Are you suggesting that we pray in our own church ignoring each other ? You don't, of course. It is so much more fun when simmers flying P3D come to the MFS forum and vice versa. And MFSers and P3Ders can agree on one thing anyway, these people flying X-Plane are really a bore 😁

If there's any discussion guaranteed to cause blood pressure to rise it's the bashing of one sim by users of another. We've seen plenty of that and as mods it's down to us to police it. Fun for the rest of the membership but when you're trying to plan and enjoy a flight and then a post is reported it has to be assessed and dealt with. Not much fun when you're trying to enjoy your sim. And we mods are flight sim enthusiasts just like the rest of you. All our time is voluntary and this is a very busy forum.

Some people can discuss the differences in a rational manner but sadly, a minority can't and then are high maintenance. I tried to nip things in the bud before it got out of hand. It's all about balance. We try to moderate with a light touch.

[Dominique_K 10,150]

2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

 e. We try to moderate with a light touch.

You know, guys, I do not envy you. You don't have the luxury we have to put the jerks on the "ignore user" list. You have to read everybody 😱 !  My post was tongue-in-cheek as you have guessed. You do a great job Ray ! And I have also seen over the months, that the moderation  at Avsim has had a softer , less intrusive, touch. And it is good. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Dominique_K

[Ray Proudfoot 8,964]

@Dominique_K, appreciate the kind words. 👍 There are a few I’d love to put on my ignore list but that’s not allowed. Hard to get inside some people’s heads when you read the tripe they write. One individual has multiple posts not approved because they add nothing to the discussion.

[simbol 5,821]

2 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

But everybody has already jumped into the MFS train ! Don't you blind yourself  ?

 10 months after MFS release, 90 developers have put 383 products in the MS Market Place. MS estimates that 962 products have been released in this store and other 3rd party stores.  And now we have with PMDG the addition of a top-tier aircraft developer. And I do not speak of the explosion of freeware, some of them truly excellent.

In 40 years of simming I have not seen such a boom of payware, so close to the release. So much and so close. Aircraft, sceneries, utilities. We have them all. So where is the SDK problem ? 

 

 

If anyone here is blind is people doing comments like yours.. just because developers are able to use the current limited SDK to build sceneries and airplanes, it doesn't mean everybody else can build other utilities or their add-ons for their sim.. neither it means many others can start producing content for MSFS just like that in a blink of an eye. Some of us are still waiting for promised SDK functionality to port over content we have already created and developed.

I must admit these type of comments really p.i.s.s me off.. to the top of my head.. are you aware many of the freeware available are just "hacks"? not using even documented parts of MSFS development? that doesn't work for payware people.. what you would do as a Payware developer if such hacks are then invalid with the next release? refund the money? Hell imagine Microsoft now changes the base 747 panels and they do not work anymore with Captaim Sim 777 which is a merge with the default 747? what will happen now? all those customers upset because the product doesn't work anymore. what now? refund? close shop? Going the hacking WAY is not viable for payware, in hence why respetable firms like HiFi are waiting.. in hence why PMDG was waiting.. now WASM is viable.. so they are moving forward since they can built glass cockpits.. this was IMPOSIBLE 8 months ago.

For a freeware, if it stops working, no problem.. if you used base files you are not breaking MS EULAS, etc. but payware? it doesn't work like that.. 

I am not a scenery developer, neither a Airplane developer.. and if I decide to do Airplanes, it will take me many years to release something (3+ or even more) since I do not even have 3D models already developed as Aerosoft, PMDG, Captaim Sim, etc.

MSFS SDK is not even version 1.0, while P3D PDK has 350+ functions.. the MSFS SDK for SimConnect has about 65.. which are just the same as they were for ESP 1.0 when FSX version 1 was launched. They took that SDK, copy and pasted it.. closed all the cameras, weather functionality, external DLL Libraries and blocked them from being used.. that's it.. So any custom code you had to attach to the Sim outside of SimConnect is gone.. you can throw it in the trash. Any Camera add-on.. to the trash.. any Weather add-on.. to the trash..

Now, imagine the world you would have right now inside MSFS if the SDK was developed properly.. this is not a good thing for users or developers.. you would gave this platform even better if the SDK was not in such a pathetic state from the beginning.

And to be clear, is not like we do not want to jump on the train.. it is about waiting for Microsoft to allow us to jump in.. most of us are being ghosted.. ignored via their forums, emails, etc.

S.

[Dominique_K 10,150]

10 minutes ago, simbol said:

I must admit these type of comments really p.i.s.s me off.. to the top of my head.

And it p*sses you off in bold 😂. Goodness this has to be serious then, I am impressed.

I do not  disregard all your arguments and that it is not so easy for you but the sad reality we see, we the users, is that your are the only developer so negative and so bitter. I do not know any other.  And you bring your agenda and  bad vibes toward MFS in this P3D forum on a regular basis. Sad. 

After your record of negativity I would think that MS ignoring you is quite understandable. They don't have to work with people who hate their guts, do they ? 

[devgrp 1,233]

7 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I don't think PMDG are snubbing P3D, what I see in the future is a PMDG aircraft will be less feature rich and cheaper for MSFS and more feature rich and more expensive for P3D. 

There is 10+ years of code in the PMDG 737NGx (released 2011) it's going to take some time to get all that code base moved over to MSFS WASM, especially all the very fast and highly accelerated DirectX code which helps keep FPS high in P3D.  Still a big question mark on how well WASM threading will work and the translation layers from WASM to DirectX/GDI.  

I'm not going to speculate on where the SDK for MSFS ends up, nor where the SDK/PDK for P3D ends up.  To be honest, I was actually a little disappointed PMDG didn't go beyond the DC-6 for XP11 but again I think that was cost related due to significant changes in the code base having to go from DirectX to OpenGL/Vulkan.

Although I've heard rumors that 3D modelling is the more "expensive" aspect of these aircraft projects, but that doesn't really make much sense to me as the average salary for 3D modelers (US) is around $64K/yr and the average salary of a C++ developer is $88K/yr (US) ... but maybe it's just a matter of resource time?

I do feel LM need to get these minor version updates "right" or else they will lose developer interest as well as customer base.  I haven't done a "for pleasure" flight in P3D since the introduction of a broken EA in V5.0.  I've consumed myself with working on MSFS projects even with an SDK that doesn't allow me to provide a better end user experience.

As mentioned, I would like real "accountable" and detailed road maps from LM and MS/Asobo ... that's how a proper business model and budgeting can be managed which is ultimately beneficial for LM and MS/Asobo (in regards to SDK and new features).  If such detailed information was shared, I could then plan, and as such could pass my plans along to the community.  I assume neither of these platforms can provide such details because no real "solid" plan is in place for the next 12 months, just "generic" plans or nothing at all.

I've worked for plenty of companies (large and small) that don't plan, it's a nightmare and constant process of catching up, too little too late, and endless changes in direction and wasted work efforts.  If I showed up at the race track for a race weekend without any planning, I'd never complete a race let alone win one, planning is/was everything.  Anyway, I digress, yet again.

Cheers, Rob.

Will you come back here and apologize when pmdg delivers a more feature rich version than the p3d version? lol

[abrams_tank 7,426]

On 5/24/2021 at 8:34 PM, rocketlaunch said:

PMDG will follow the market and where the customers are, they are a business after all. 

^^ This.

This is my first post in the P3D forum, as I am an MSFS user and I generally post in the MSFS forum. But 3rd party devs are just businesses.  They have to pay wages, pay the rent, pay the bills, etc.  And they have to come out with enough of a profit for it at the end of the day, to justify the time and expenses they put into it.  Notice I said "enough of a profit."  If the profit they earn from a product is so low that it can't even pay for their own livelihood, for their food, etc, they may elect to stop running their business  (or try to sell their business) and go back to working a full time job that pays better.

Businesses will go where the $$$ is, and 3rd party devs are just businesses.

Edited May 25, 2021 by abrams_tank

[Dreamflight767 312]

Have you all tried the Fly The Maddog X?  Do it.  You won't give a flying *explicit* what PMDG does.

[abrams_tank 7,426]

BTW, we had discussed this in the MSFS forums a few months before.  But I think this quote from Mathias at Aerosoft on the CRJ's sales is possibly related to PMDG's decision:

Quote

From the publishers point of view...  sales are very very strong. I can tell you some glasses were raised.

https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/160660-how-are-the-sales-going-for-msfs/&tab=comments#comment-1024445

Some of us were speculating what Mathias meant by "some glasses were raised"  and we speculated that since PMDG has a good relationship with Aerosoft, that PMDG was made aware of the strong sales of the CRJ.  Oddly enough, shortly after the CRJ came out and this quote from Mathias at Aerosoft came out in the Aerosoft forums, Randazzo then came out with the post in the PMDG forums that the MSFS SDK was no longer blocking PMDG's development and that PMDG had everything they needed from the MSFS SDK.

Was it a coincidence that the timing of Randazzo's post at PMDG admitting that the MSFS SDK had everything PMDG needed coincided with the news from Mathias that the CRJ sales in MSFS were very strong?  Hmm, the timing of Randazoo's post was ... well ... interesting.  This is all speculation of course.  But if PMDG found out about the strong CRJ sales and then decided to prioritize MSFS products, it certainly makes sense.  At the end of the day, PMDG is a business after all.  And they will go where the $$$ is.

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

This whole "incomplete MSFS SDK" conversation is getting really boring. For years, the coders at LM have tried to wean 3rd party developers off of the FSX-era SimConnect SDK. They did so by creating a P3d-specific SDK (what they call the PDK). But most 3rd party developers stuck with the archaic SimConnect SDK because it allowed them to also keep their toes in the FSX pond.

Now fast forward to the present. Asobo also wanted to ditch SimConnect. In addition to that, they dumped the ability to access the innards of MSFS by using C dynamic link libraries (DLLs). This tack frustrated the 3PD community. To make matters worse Asobo decided to use a new weather engine altogether. When the MSFS SDK was released, many SimConnect functions were broken and all weather-related calls were deprecated. With each SDK release, bugs were fixed, but some items like AI traffic functionality are still buggy.

As groups like Working Title and others have discovered, the MSFS SDK is not as bad as its online community reputationmight suggest. Coding for MSFS requires shedding the old FSX way of accessing the sim and following the rules set by Asobo. The SDK still needs a bit of work. But it is not the monstrous ogre portrayed here by a few inviduals.

 

[simbol 5,821]

35 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

And it p*sses you off in bold 😂. Goodness this has to be serious then, I am impressed.

I do not  disregard all your arguments and that it is not so easy for you but the sad reality we see, we the users, is that your are the only developer so negative and so bitter. I do not know any other.  And you bring your agenda and  bad vibes toward MFS in this P3D forum on a regular basis. Sad. 

After your record of negativity I would think that MS ignoring you is quite understandable. They don't have to work with people who hate their guts, do they ? 

You for real? I am the only developer? lamao.. I might have been the only outspoken developer on AVSIM.. perhaps.. so is that a bad thing? I am not keeping my mouth shut.. I believe anyone has the right to express their opinions and many things you guys believe is all whizzles and rainbows behind the scenes it is not.. so I like to bring those things to the table, if you don't like, fine.. it doesn't mean I am negative.. I am expressing things as I see it..

In passing, other developers that are not as out spoken as me.. are also being ghosted.. so your logic fails there..

And if you read all the posts I did on this thread, you will find I was supporting the decision from PMDG to develop for MSFS. So I don;t get why you do such an statement like that towards me..

S.