Hello!

First of all, I would like to make it clear that I am not writing this topic for any "my sim vs your sim" argument.

The latest announcement from PMDG came as a surprise for the entire sim community where they announced the plans of going into MSFS 2020 with their range of aircrafts. That's indeed a great news for the sim and for the new folks coming into this hobby!

However, MSFS is not a change to me and I am sure there are many of you like me who doesn't really care about where MSFS is going to be after 2-3 years. Yes of course, its a new sim and it looks promising! But P3D isn't far behind either. There's tons of work put in by Lockheed Martin to make the sim look and even perform better than its previous versions. The introduction of DX12 and TrueSky has been a great step towards making this sim way more better than its previous versions.

What took me by surprise was that PMDG was always quiet about MSFS and its progress till this last week which is completely understandable. I am sure they would like to be at least 90% sure before making an announcement, considering the reputation of PMDG as an aircraft developer. But oh well, this last announcement has now changed the tide completely. Within 1 year they have plans of bringing out not 1, not 2 but 3 aircrafts to the new sim! Of course I know a lot of assets from the previous sims can be used and with the help of the devs of new sim it can be achieved.

However, what baffles me now is that it took them almost 8 months to get the 777 ported from v4 to v5, but within 1 year they have a 777 ready for MSFS from scratch?? Does this mean PMDG is going to keep P3D users in a "waiting mode" from now on? I still remember how many people were posting questions about the release date or progress of the 777 in v5 and how many times PMDG came up with the reply "Oh we're just testing it, its almossst there", "We just have little bit left, we can release it now also but we want to add a bit more". We didn't mind waiting also (at least I didn't and am sure a majority of us wouldn't considering that we'd prefer quality over quantity). Of course for PMDG, I can understand its a new sim, new market and they want to release their products for that sim. But does that mean they are going to start putting P3D in the backseat from now on? I am perfectly fine with them entering into the new market, but I would be heavily disappointed from them if they start ignoring their loyal and old customers who have had their faith in them and still standing by their side.

Any announcement of 737MAX? No.
Any announcement of the new mystery aircraft which they hinted about a year ago? No.
Any news of the 777 VC update? No.

Now I am sure many of the new folks coming into this hobby will say "P3D is old tech, it's time to move on" and things like "Eh, same thing happened with FSX". But let me tell you its an entirely different thing now. FSX was abandoned by its publishers, which is why we were OKAY to move to P3D since LM was going to actively work on it and improve it and they are still improving it 10 years down the line. And just because there is a new car in the market, doesn't mean I will be like "Let's sell this one and hop on to the new one" when I am happy with how my current car performs. I have absolutely no doubt that Asobo/Microsoft will also keep improving their sim but then even LM is not going anywhere and they will constantly work on v5. I sincerely hope they are not going to ignore their existing customer base..

5 minutes ago, Nocturnal said:

but I would be heavily disappointed from them if they start ignoring their loyal and old customers who have had their faith in them and still standing by their side.

https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/126753-22may21-is-the-glass-half-empty-or-half-full-read-this-before-you-drown-in-such-shallow-water

The question I'm most intrigued by is what their MSFS pricing strategy will be.  Are they going to maintain traditional pricing?  Or do they see a new and much larger market that they will look to sell more copies at a lower cost to?  Like we've seen in scenery devs

3 minutes ago, micstatic said:

Like we've seen in scenery devs

I don't think they are selling cheaper because they sell more.. they are selling cheaper because the competition is harder.. besides most people are happy with how defaults looks, why they would be encourage to purchase scenery when the default looks good enought?.

I have lots of friends that moved to MSFS and haven't purchased 1 single airport...

S.

24 minutes ago, SierraDelta said:

https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/126753-22may21-is-the-glass-half-empty-or-half-full-read-this-before-you-drown-in-such-shallow-water

Thanks for that link but I am not at all worried about them totally abandoning P3D. They are going to launch 3 new aircrafts within this year (as per their latest announcement) and the 747 in early 2022 which makes it 4, which means most of their time would be spent on the new platform. And then the issues that come up with it after releasing it, community feedback, etc. All this is going to take up a lot of their time. Again, I am not against their move or this post is not to "start a drama".

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Nocturnal

It is a question of business priorities. If you have X developers and Y platforms and Z features to do, then all other things like skillsets being equal, you have to decide what % of X to put on each one of Y and that is usually based on business priorities around Z. And in most cases, you'll prioritise those features in Z which you can make the most money from. Not always - there may be an urgent fire you need to put out which is causing reputational damage, for example. But most often you'll go with what brings the bigger returns. 

If PMDG were to act like any other business - and I am not saying that they will, merely that it would not be surprising if they did - then if the MSFS market is bigger for their products, they will likely put a greater % of their X developers on MSFS and a smaller one on P3D. If getting things done on MSFS requires 100% of X for a period of time, and P3D development has to wait while that happens... then it will wait. 

This is happening all over the market now and it's basically unavoidable. The big difference from the past is that MSFS is not a replacement platform for P3D, as FSX was for FS9. So the P3D market will exist, and even if everyone here made the leap to MSFS, P3D would still have its commercial customers, and that's a lot of potential revenue for the right products from the right companies. 

I hate it as much as the next P3D-exclusive simmer, but you can't argue with economics. I do think some developers have been less than open and honest about it, and could have treated their existing customers better, but I have to say the post from Randazzo above seems perfectly reasonable to me. 

The title is poorly word; PMDG is not 'snubbing' anyone.  To that point, they will continue to support thier current products, which includes P3D; however, as I stated months ago, there's little chance of seeing a clean sheet aircraft design for P3D again.  The differences in technologies requires extensive differences in base coding; the current/future P3D market does not justify the additional expenses/coding.   

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by kingm56

PMDG will follow the market and where the customers are, they are a business after all. 

47 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

The title is poorly word; PMDG is not 'snubbing' anyone.  To that point, they will continue to support thier current products, which includes P3D; however, as I stated months ago, there's a limited chance of seeing a new clean sheet aircraft design in P3D again.  The differences in technologies requires extensive differences in base coding; the current/future P3D market does not justify the additional expenses/coding.   

That's the part that puzzles me. PMDG have never been "quick" with respect to developing and releasing products, and Robert has mentioned in the past that work has been halted on one product because another one needed greater resources. That being the case, I am somewhat surprised that they have indicated that THREE products could well be released for MSFS this year (with a 4th in early 2022). Maybe they have already done 90% of the groundwork for all four products, but when did they do this? They have been actively developing for P3D up to this point, and they have also stated that they were in idle mode (so to speak) with respect to MSFS because of the apparent limitations in the SDK framework.

I do not want to start another conspiracy theory, but four products in the space of twelve months does not sound like the old PMDG to me.

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Christopher Low

You might as well suggest they are snubbing Fly! in not making stuff for that any longer. It's not a snub, it's a pragmatic business decision, by a business. Things move on and any company which doesn't go where the sales are will not do as well as it could.

2 hours ago, simbol said:

I don't think they are selling cheaper because they sell more.. they are selling cheaper because the competition is harder.. besides most people are happy with how defaults looks, why they would be encourage to purchase scenery when the default looks good enought?.

I have lots of friends that moved to MSFS and haven't purchased 1 single airport...

S.

There's more competition, naturally, because there's a larger market, according to some major devs who are selling scenery. I see no reason not to take them at face value. I appreciate your insights as a dev but I think you're making assumptions based on anecdotal data in this particular case. 

I don't think the comment was indirect, "we are going all in on MSFS" sounds pretty direct to me. As I said before MSFS was released, within two years there will be only one flight sim, MSFS! And I know your pain, I have a couple of thousand invested in P3D and several hundred in X-Plane! But progress is inevitable and welcome. For MSFS to be where it is in this short time since it's launch speaks volumes of where it is going, like I said from day one there will be only one, MSFS.

1 minute ago, Chapstick said:

There's more competition, naturally, because there's a larger market, according to some major devs who are selling scenery. I see no reason not to take them at face value. I appreciate your insights as a dev but I think you're making assumptions based on anecdotal data in this particular case. 

Not really.. the problem is simple for scenery.. it is more difficult to sell for this platform because there is lots of FREE stuff available everywhere... plus the default is good enough for the market.

Go and check if other utilities (non scenery) which have the same access to the market are selling cheaper. Hell even captaim sim with a half done job, merging it with a 747 was able to sell for 30 USD.. 

You think PMDG will sell their for 30USD? stop dreaming.. I am sure they will exploit the market point price to its maximum, why they wouldn't?

S.

45 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

That's the part that puzzles me. PMDG have never been "quick" with respect to developing and releasing products, and Robert has mentioned in the past that work has been halted on one product because another one needed greater resources. That being the case, I am somewhat surprised that they have indicated that THREE products could well be released for MSFS this year (with a 4th in early 2022). Maybe they have already done 90% of the groundwork for all four products, but when did they do this? They have been actively developing for P3D up to this point, and they have also stated that they were in idle mode (so to speak) with respect to MSFS because of the apparent limitations in the SDK framework.

I do not want to start another conspiracy theory, but four products in the space of twelve months does not sound like the old PMDG to me.

They have multiple teams. RSR has explained this many times. PMDG has released three products for P3D in the past ~10 or so months - cargo and BBJ expansions for the NGXu and the 777-200ER. If anything, PMDG has really picked up their development pace, though it's not always going to be in favor of everyone's particular wants (I just want the word not allowed LNAV update...). For comparison, it took FSLabs *18 months* to add sharklets and an EFB. What is Majestic doing? We got a screenshot of a mediocre virtual cabin recently. Ok. PMDG has been actively releasing for P3D and being transparent about their plans and they get slagged on more than anyone else. It's bizarre. 

2 minutes ago, simbol said:

Not really.. the problem is simple for scenery.. it is more difficult to sell for this platform because there is lots of FREE stuff available everywhere... plus the default is good enough for the market.

Go and check if other utilities (non scenery) which have the same access to the market are selling cheaper. Hell even captaim sim with a half done job, merging it with a 747 was able to sell for 30 USD.. 

You think PMDG will sell their for 30USD? stop dreaming.. I am sure they will exploit the market point price to its maximum, why they wouldn't?

S.

I wasn't trying to back an argument that PMDG will offer cheaper pricing. I was just addressing the scenery question. Obviously their products won't be $30. Scenery is a wholly different thing. 

P.S. everything you've said so far is a good thing in the end for the ecosystem - more competition, freeware, better default scenery, etc.