8 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Well then you’re not flying IFR just using MSFS then… you should have made that clear. And those of us concerned about trying to fly IFR in MSFS are trying to do so with the built-in ATC and Nav systems. It’s a bloody mess. Posts like yours that are dismissive of these problems are not helpful. 

When have we ever been able to fly IFR with built in ATC?  No sim has provided that in 20+ years that I know of and it's not something any vanilla sim has ever mastered, especially with AI aircraft.  AI and ATC has always been a joke.    That's why ATC add-ons exist and what does IFR have to do with modern airliners?  IFR existed before you could punch it into a CDU/FMC and let the A/C do everything for you...   It is Instrument "Flying" not Instrument "Computer programming"  if we want to get technical.  

Go grab a vanilla sim, a default aircraft and default ATC in any other sim and let me know how you make out.  Clearly you are expecting a default MSFS to do everything other sims require a multitude of add-ons to get correct.  

Is it perfect, no, can I use the same ATC add-on in MSFS that I also use in P3D and have a common ATC experience, yes.   Does MSFS have the advanced weather capabilities to do dynamic IFR at arrival and departure based on current Metar, Meh, it's not great but does that prevent me from setting IFR conditions, nope and when MSFS gives you IFR, holy cow it is make you sweat in your seat IFR!!  I have never tried to avoid clouds in any simulator before.  Only MSFS makes me feel like I want to go "around" that towering cloud because it looks so ominous.

 

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by psolk

What is IFR?

What does it entail?

17 minutes ago, DJJose said:

What is IFR?

 

16 minutes ago, DJJose said:

What does it entail?

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-art-of-instrument-flying_jr-williams/1354541/item/32475049/?gclid=CjwKCAjwyvaJBhBpEiwA8d38vOjz4L78g7OPoFbdH14MhFBs-S9Vxoq0Ny3SID-bytmOhg1De1enphoC0WIQAvD_BwE#idiq=32475049&edition=2340329

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by fppilot

58 minutes ago, psolk said:

When have we ever been able to fly IFR with built in ATC? 

Often in FSX, with no addons other than load flight plans created elsewhere instead of using the arduous FSX flight planning feature.  But for me IFR flying with more than respectable ATC began in about 1991 with subLogic's Flight Assignment:ATP.  Quite disheartening that here 30 years later we have a simulator that does not yet match.  And ATIS is even worse.  FSX ATIS could even recognize and report weather injected from a third party weather engine.  And it could report all of the metar variables correctly.  Actually it still does.  I continue to fly FSX, though it is getting less and less as MSFS gradually improves in regard to systems.

The one  flaw I experienced with FSX ATC was hearing it constantly chide some single other aircraft to expedite its climb or descent to an assigned altitude.  Over and over again!  

4 minutes ago, fppilot said:

Often in FSX, with no addons other than load flight plans created elsewhere instead of using the arduous FSX flight planning feature.  But for me IFR flying with more than respectable ATC began in about 1991 with subLogic's Flight Assignment:ATP.  Quite disheartening that here 30 years later we have a simulator that does not yet match.  And ATIS is even worse.  FSX ATIS could even recognize and report weather injected from a third party weather engine.  And it could report all of the metar variables correctly.  Actually it still does.  I continue to fly FSX, though it is getting less and less as MSFS gradually improves in regard to systems.

The one  flaw I experienced with FSX ATC was hearing it constantly chide some single other aircraft to expedite its climb or descent to an assigned altitude.  Over and over again!  

How about the turns when flying from point A to point B, turn right 30 degrees, two minutes later, turn left 40 degrees,  2 minutes later turn right 25 degrees, and on and on. Default ATC in any sim was a total waste of time. 

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by Bobsk8

4 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

the RNAV buggy autopilot. As said by others, you can fly traditional nav beacons with the autopilot and RNAV by hand including the SID and STAR.  I don’t  need any mod to do that.

The new NXi will fly any RNAV procedure (SID/STAR or approach) under full autopilot control perfectly, as will the WT modded CJ4, and both have functioning VNAV. The Aerosoft CRJ will also fly departures and arrivals exactly as published, and can do RNAV approaches, with the proviso that the pilot must manually control the vertical descent profile (as in the real aircraft). I have not flown the FBW A320 for quite some time but it is my understanding that the latest experimental version with custom autopilot and navigation system overcomes many of the limitations of the default systems.

The CRJ is payware, but the WT CJ4 and NXi and FBW A320 are all completely free.

All these aircraft have the ability to enter the flight plan directly  rather than using the limited and buggy default flight planner. The default planner will be undergoing a complete overhaul in months to come by the same WT developers who have created the NXi, and I fully expect that it will eventually be as functional and accurate as any third party planner like SimBrief or PFPX.

If default ATC is the only benchmark for “real” IFR, then you can’t fly “real” IFR in FSX, P3D or XPlane either, because the default ATC in those sims is every bit as bad as MSFS.

25 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

How about the turns when flying from point A to point B, turn right 30 degrees, two minutes later, turn left 40 degrees,  2 minutes later turn right 25 degrees, and on and on. Default ATC in any sim was a total waste of time. 

I did not have that happen often. I fly almost exclusively GA since way back with FS98 and I believe that occurred most often faster aircraft such as commercial jets.  I have ceased even attempting to use MSFS ATC and have also ceased tuning and listening to enroute ATIS/ASOS stations to update my altimeter setting.  I use the Unreal Weather injection and live weather metars on my iPad from FltPlan Go.

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by fppilot

1 minute ago, fppilot said:

I did not have that happen often. I fly almost exclusively GA since way back with FS98 and I believe that occurred most often faster aircraft such as commercial jets.

That is all I flew back in the day. My first payware was Radar contact back the day, which at the time was pretty good. Since then I have moved on to better choices. 

31 minutes ago, fppilot said:

Often in FSX, with no addons other than load flight plans created elsewhere instead of using the arduous FSX flight planning feature.  But for me IFR flying with more than respectable ATC began in about 1991 with subLogic's Flight Assignment:ATP.  Quite disheartening that here 30 years later we have a simulator that does not yet match.  And ATIS is even worse.  FSX ATIS could even recognize and report weather injected from a third party weather engine.  And it could report all of the metar variables correctly.  Actually it still does.  I continue to fly FSX, though it is getting less and less as MSFS gradually improves in regard to systems.

The one  flaw I experienced with FSX ATC was hearing it constantly chide some single other aircraft to expedite its climb or descent to an assigned altitude.  Over and over again!  

I beg to differ but the default wxr, default ATC and default aircraft in FSX never provided a realistic experience without an add-on aircraft, add-on wxr injector and add-on ATC at a bare minimum. 

Stock vanilla "everything" which is what MSFS is being judged upon has been pretty poor in prior iterations to say the least.  I just flew the 145 from Milan to Monza race track and couldn't believe my only add-on was the 145 which by the wat can fly procedures just fine 🙂   

25 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

 

If default ATC is the only benchmark for “real” IFR, then you can’t fly “real” IFR in FSX, P3D or XPlane either, because the default ATC in those sims is every bit as bad as MSFS.

 What I said is that we shouldn't mix IFR in general and the inability to fly with the default Garmin, as it is only part of the story. You can fly IFR with the vanilla MSFS and traditional beacons  like the DC-6 owners I suspect mostly do like me or following a RNAV track by hand. IFR and flight automation are two different things. 

You can fly in vanilla MSFS in very low visibility.

2 hours ago, psolk said:

When have we ever been able to fly IFR with built in ATC?  No sim has provided that in 20+ years that I know of and it's not something any vanilla sim has ever mastered, especially with AI aircraft.  AI and ATC has always been a joke.    That's why ATC add-ons exist and what does IFR have to do with modern airliners?  IFR existed before you could punch it into a CDU/FMC and let the A/C do everything for you...   It is Instrument "Flying" not Instrument "Computer programming"  if we want to get technical.  

Go grab a vanilla sim, a default aircraft and default ATC in any other sim and let me know how you make out.  Clearly you are expecting a default MSFS to do everything other sims require a multitude of add-ons to get correct.  

Is it perfect, no, can I use the same ATC add-on in MSFS that I also use in P3D and have a common ATC experience, yes.   Does MSFS have the advanced weather capabilities to do dynamic IFR at arrival and departure based on current Metar, Meh, it's not great but does that prevent me from setting IFR conditions, nope and when MSFS gives you IFR, holy cow it is make you sweat in your seat IFR!!  I have never tried to avoid clouds in any simulator before.  Only MSFS makes me feel like I want to go "around" that towering cloud because it looks so ominous.

 

Anyone that claims that MSFS can properly simulate IFR with one of the default airliners is just wrong. It cannot without add-ons. I think we can all agree on that.

Some may find that perfectly acceptable. I do not. 
 

ps. I don’t care if this is the same as other flight simulators or not. I do not use other flight simulators. 

pss… the fact that a so called “flight simulator” cannot properly simulate IFR in 2020 is pretty sad 

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by Virtual-Chris

25 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Anyone that claims that MSFS can properly simulate IFR with one of the default airliners is just wrong. It cannot without add-ons. I think we can all agree on that.

Some may find that perfectly acceptable. I do not. 
 

ps. I don’t care if this is the same as other flight simulators or not. I do not use other flight simulators. 

pss… the fact that a so called “flight simulator” cannot properly simulate IFR in 2020 is pretty sad 

Here are the FAA requirements for IFR flight. I believe many of the default MSFS aircraft have meet these including the steam gauge 172 which I flew IFR for a few weeks with no problems. 

 

Generator or alternator
Rate of turn indicator (turn coordinator or turn & bank indicator)
Altimeter, sensitive (Kollsman window)
Ball (inclinometer, the ‘level’ component of a turn coordinator or turn & bank indicator)
Clock (digital display or sweep second hand)
Attitude indicator
Radios as required for navigation and communication
Directional gyro or heading indicator

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by Bobsk8

13 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

I agree with Frank.  When MSFS debuted very few aircraft had the navigational power to handle a basic rnav (GPS) approach.  Then came along the WT CJ4 mod, and so on and so forth.  The A32X in experimental mode, the WT g1000 NXi, etc etc.  We're doing a LOT better now.

I often do flights in MSFS not using the GPS , only VOR, NDB.  Keeps me in practice in case the GPS blows a fuse. 

2 hours ago, fppilot said:

 

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-art-of-instrument-flying_jr-williams/1354541/item/32475049/?gclid=CjwKCAjwyvaJBhBpEiwA8d38vOjz4L78g7OPoFbdH14MhFBs-S9Vxoq0Ny3SID-bytmOhg1De1enphoC0WIQAvD_BwE#idiq=32475049&edition=2340329

Thanks! Do you have that book?

In the future you might want to just copy and paste an answer from Google. It's a much more affordable option. 😀

Example: https://atpflightschool.com/become-a-pilot/flight-training/vfr-ifr-flight-rules.html

BTW, for IFR simulation on a PC sim, P3D is a much better option.

Edited September 12, 20214 yr by DJJose