Is ridiculously modeled, to say the least, but, apparently they're aware of that and one of the planned features for SU6 is a new debug window for monitoring how it acts on the aircraft...

Looking fwd into it !

I wonder if they even model ( as it is on other sims ) the ground effect over the different wing and stabilizer / elevator ... surfaces ?

Something must really be wonky with how it's done right now... It's hillarious to see how it affects, for instance a 748-i on landing... Well... Let's hope they address it in some good way. I think this new "ground effect debug window" might have been a request from developers looking for tools to overcome the default effects.

Edited October 9, 20214 yr by jcomm

This is something they probably do need to address properly at some point, since every pilot knows that the dangerous and tricky part of flying an aeroplane is the take offs and the landings. Can't say I've tried it, but if someone cares to, they can let us know; the A320 actually significantly reduces its maximum aileron deflection rate which can be input from full deflection of the sidestick controller the moment there is weight on the wheels. This is so that it is less likely to suffer a wing/pod strike in crosswind operations. Since the A320 NEO is the poster child for MSFS, it would help if it did indulge in such things.

I've generally been fairly impressed with the way MSFS can simulate a sideslip on an approach and an offset for a crosswind, but once the wheels are on the ground, as with most sims, the transition in handling still leaves a bit to be desired. In fairness it's not as bad as some sims in this regard; ironically MS Flight was one of the best at this so it's not as if MS doesn't ever care about such things, but I guess time will tell.

Edited October 9, 20214 yr by Chock

Living fairly close to EGKK I noticed that A318 and 319s were the aircraft type mostly seen performing go arounds. When I asked a neighbour who is a real world Captain what was happening, he explained that it was probably due to the ground effect and the pilot flying simply being unable to get the plane onto the ground before running out of available runway. He explained further that the A318 and 319 shared the same wing dimensions as the A320 series and because the actually fuselage of the A318 and 19s were smaller than the A320 this kind of "enhanced" ground effect was something to look out for.

Quaere.. that Airbus experience has nothing to do with the "MFS Ground Effect"... Believe me 🙂

23 minutes ago, Quaere Verum said:

Living fairly close to EGKK I noticed that A318 and 319s were the aircraft type mostly seen performing go arounds. When I asked a neighbour who is a real world Captain what was happening, he explained that it was probably due to the ground effect and the pilot flying simply being unable to get the plane onto the ground before running out of available runway. He explained further that the A318 and 319 shared the same wing dimensions as the A320 series and because the actually fuselage of the A318 and 19s were smaller than the A320 this kind of "enhanced" ground effect was something to look out for.

Possibly a factor, although a bit concerning, as pilots should have done conversion training to cover the different handling characteristics.  Also, the wing on the A318 is actually smaller, not the same. 

I would say it is maybe just down to local conditions on the day and sub-optimal pilotage!    Also, there are a lot of Airbuses in and out of Gatwick, so not sure if you are counting by raw numbers or an actual percentage?

Airbuses land OK at lots of airports with much shorter runways than Gatwick.

I'm sure they do, but I'm posting something I've seen and been informed about why this happens.

37 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

Possibly a factor, although a bit concerning, as pilots should have done conversion training to cover the different handling characteristics.  Also, the wing on the A318 is actually smaller, not the same. 

I would say it is maybe just down to local conditions on the day and sub-optimal pilotage!    Also, there are a lot of Airbuses in and out of Gatwick, so not sure if you are counting by raw numbers or an actual percentage?

Bob, I understand what you're saying and I'm only quoting what the Captain told me (I naturally assumed he ought to know what he's talking about given his position and experience). I would agree it may have been down to local conditions on the day. It seemed to always be a warm and sunny day. Sub optimal pilotage could well have been a factor without doubt. 

Go arounds were so rare that it was very obvious something odd was happening when an airbus would be climbing out over my house which is not on any published STAR. It was always the same airline though. The very airline that this Captain flew for which was why I asked him.

I have noted lately that flights from Inverness, Glasgow and Belfast seem to be flying directly over my house at around 6,000 feet on occasion cutting right across Crawley rather than flying between Crawley and Horsham. I've no idea why as again it's not a published STAR/Approach.

My experience although limited to gliders, which I've been flying for more than 41 yrs now, dictates that even the most performant ones I've flown, correctly configured for a "full stop landing :-)" do not float anywhere near as much as pretty much all aircraft I have tried in MFS.

The 747-8i can even surprise you with a hands-off landing where in the last 50 feet it starts climbing again and stays there, slowly losing speed until it finally descends and touches down...

In all other default aircraft I experience that same way overdone floating experience and above all I do not experience any of the pitching moments due, among other factors, to reduced washout (angle). 

Really looking fwd to check that new "ground effect debug window" announced for SU6 so that I can verify if, for instance, hstab / elevator ground effect is calculated separately from the main wing, or if at least variables that impact, or are impacted, by ground effect are shown, like Cl, Cd, Cm...

Edited October 9, 20214 yr by jcomm

16 minutes ago, jcomm said:

My experience although limited to gliders, which I've been flying for more than 41 yrs now, dictates that even the most performant ones I've flown, correctly configured for a "full stop landing :-)" do not float anywhere near as much as pretty much all aircraft I have tried in MFS.

The 747-8i can even surprise you with a hands-off landing where in the last 50 feet it starts climbing again and stays there, slowly losing speed until it finally descends and touches down...

In all other default aircraft I experience that same way overdone floating experience and above all I do not experience any of the pitching moments due, among other factors, to reduced washout (angle). 

Really looking fwd to check that new "ground effect debug window" announced for SU6 so that I can verify if, for instance, hstab / elevator ground effect is calculated separately from the main wing, or if at least variables that impact, or are impacted, by ground effect are shown, like Cl, Cd, Cm...

1.  You are obviously FAR more knowledgeable in this than myself.  I don't even know what some of those acronyms are LOL

But... 

Even I've noticed takeoff/landing in this sim is a real challenge at times.... Whether it's being completely blown off runway with no control on takeoff or having to force it down on landing initiating the dreaded bounce I've been more challenged on the ground in MSFS than any other sim... To some extent I enjoyed it feeling it should be a challenge whereas some sims have felt overly simplistic on the ground but some of the vastly unrealistic overly abrupt ground movements have left me pulling back on the stick at times only because if I don't get off the ground I'm going off the runway sideways LOL  

If we could get somewhere between "on rails" and "uncontrollable" I'd be happy LOL  

 

Edited October 9, 20214 yr by psolk

On a sunny day, tarmac or concrete runways do give of a lot of thermals.  I've flown some weiightshift microlights amongst many other things and have been unable to get them down on a few occasions due to the thermals being given off.  MSFS does not model thermals though so far as I am aware and it really ought to.  I can't detect any realistic ridge left either, just something that seems like random turbulence and I thought this had been modelled.

1 hour ago, Quaere Verum said:

Bob, I understand what you're saying and I'm only quoting what the Captain told me (I naturally assumed he ought to know what he's talking about given his position and experience).

Are you stating that an airline Captain would know more than some of the " aviation experts" on this forum? 😉

1 hour ago, jcomm said:

My experience although limited to gliders, which I've been flying for more than 41 yrs now, dictates that even the most performant ones I've flown, correctly configured for a "full stop landing :-)" do not float anywhere near as much as pretty much all aircraft I have tried in MFS.

 

The PMDG DC6 does not float in ground effect in MSFS.  

50 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Are you stating that an airline Captain would know more than some of the " aviation experts" on this forum? 😉

Definitely not 😂

3 hours ago, Quaere Verum said:

Bob, I understand what you're saying and I'm only quoting what the Captain told me (I naturally assumed he ought to know what he's talking about given his position and experience)...

Sure!   That is what he quoted to you.  Sorry if it came across as being picky.   How is Gatwick traffic in general these days?  Getting back towards pre-covid levels?