I think it's a game. Yes it will simulate the world of aviation quite nicely, but to me it's still just a game. I don't pretend to myself that I will ever be using it for any real-world aviation experiences. But the aviation related fantacy provided by this game makes it one I really like to play !Bob (Las Cruces, NM)

It's great for basic familiarization and IFR training... as an basic VFR attitudes and movements trainer its value I'd argue is actually counter productive. But generally speaking Flight Simulator is clearly a simulation.Just because it does not recreate the sensation of flight 100 percent (which you can't get on 19" monitor for a $70 price tag), that doesn't diminish the fact that its purpose is to simulate flight.All simulations are approximations of reality. -Bryan

I agree with Bryan.A game is a package 'anyone' can play straight off with some degree of success.A simulation is something that you need knowledge for, in order to get the simulation working.Add to that, procedures, the ability to program an FMC/MCDU and to operate in a 99% way that happens in reality, to pride yourself with a 'greaser' using real weather conditions knowing that it's easier in reality (so I have been told?) Microsoft Flight Simulator is definately NOT a game.Bryan's packages for instance, is based on total reality and if used efficiently produces an immersion that with a small bit of fantasy can make you feel as though you are really there! No other additions to *games* are possible.No other Game would encourage an individual to convert a room/garage into a full scale cockpit, to buy hardware to enhance it or participate with like-minded people willing to carry out ATC even more efficiently than the real people in their own time?NO, IT CAN NEVER BE REFERRED TO AS A GAME.ALWAYS WILL BE A SIMULATION.P.S. Clubs and groups all enjoying flightsim are starting all over the world, certainly in the UK are unique. Do they have similar facilities for 'Doom' players? ;-):-)

Both... a simulator and a game. But I prefer the simulator side of this game.

I'm usually of the opinion that being fanatical about anything leaves you with a very narrow view on things and means you're sometimes "forced" to make statements that simply aren't true. Let's look at your post for example, Dave:>A game is a package 'anyone' can play straight off with some>degree of success.Then you're telling me that, for example, EVE Online is not a game? In my years of experience with EVE I've run into a mass of "anyones" who haven't been able to grasp even the very basics of the game (such as "What am I supposed to do?"). And these aren't grandmothers and fathers I'm talking about here; EVE attracts gamers who you'd think have some idea of how a "game" works.>A simulation is something that you need knowledge for, in>order to get the simulation working.I'm in agreement in that simulations certainly need knowledge to operate, but the same holds true for setting the clock on a VCR...>Add to that, procedures, the ability to program an FMC/MCDU>and to operate in a 99% way that happens in reality, to pride>yourself with a 'greaser' using real weather conditions>knowing that it's easier in reality (so I have been told?)>Microsoft Flight Simulator is definately NOT a game.So the fact that someone can load up FSX, not touch a single menu item to get into the air near Friday Harbor (as happens if you have the startup menu disabled) and then proceed to fly around by turning their yoke and operating the throttle means they're not in fact just playing a game, but rather have mastered knowledge which is - as you said yourself - required to operate a simulator of FSX's caliber? ;)And as for those FMCs and MCDUs and realistic operations... If we are talking about the simulation merits of FSX out-of-the-box, I think you've just described FSX as a game. As far as I know, FSX's default planes do not have FMCs and the simulation of actual, accurate airspace operation in any and all locations around the globe is not present. We don't get ATC with asian accent in asia, for example - something that COULD be done even in a simulated environment on a home PC (unlike, for example, full-motion simulation). What about SIDs and STARs? Unless I'm mistaken, those aren't in FSX out-of-the-box either.>Bryan's packages for instance, is based on total reality and>if used efficiently produces an immersion that with a small>bit of fantasy can make you feel as though you are really>there! No other additions to *games* are possible.I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but it sounds a whole lot like you're claiming that a simulator is set apart from a game by the fact that you can enhance its realism through third party packages... aka. mods? Then you mean to say that Battlefield 2, which is largely an arcade shooter, is actually a combat simulator because you can add Project Reality mod to it which attempts to make it more realistic?>No other Game would encourage an individual to convert a>room/garage into a full scale cockpit, to buy hardware to>enhance it or participate with like-minded people willing to>carry out ATC even more efficiently than the real people in>their own time?Being fanatic about a hobby doesn't mean the subject of that fanaticism is somehow more prestigious than other, perhaps "simpler" alternatives (as perceived by the fanatic). You're right about one thing though - I seriously doubt Counter Strike players would build a full scale cockpit into their garage (I know, it wouldn't make sense... that's the point).>NO, IT CAN NEVER BE REFERRED TO AS A GAME.FSX is a game.There goes that theory of yours - I've just "referred to FSX as a game". Do *I* really believe it's a game? I'm not sure - I don't really care. My point was to show that FSX can indeed be referred to as "game" no matter what you want to believe :)>ALWAYS WILL BE A SIMULATION.To some people, yes. To everyone? No. CAN it be considered a simulation? Absolutely it CAN be considered a simulation of SOMETHING (pushing buttons? Reading weather reports?), just as easily as it can be considered a game. The only thing it depends on is what each and every one of us want to believe. Where we draw that imaginary line between game and simulation. Some put more emphasis on the visuals - as in, "do the visuals in this product provide a good enough match for the real deal and thus make it a simulation?". Others value procedures more than visuals.And then there are those who rather just have fun with it.>P.S. Clubs and groups all enjoying flightsim are starting all>over the world, certainly in the UK are unique. Do they have>similar facilities for 'Doom' players? ;-):-)I assume with Doom you're referring to FPS games in general. In which case yeah, they're called clans and they participate in large organized events which are regarded with much the same enthusiasm as this community has for flight simulation.Like I said, being fanatic about something really narrows your view on things. I'm not one to tell you what to do, but I certainly can point out just how narrow that view of yours is :)No offence.

>I agree with Bryan.>>A game is a package 'anyone' can play straight off with some>degree of success.>>A simulation is something that you need knowledge for, in>order to get the simulation working.>>Add to that, procedures, the ability to program an FMC/MCDU>and to operate in a 99% way that happens in reality, to pride>yourself with a 'greaser' using real weather conditions>knowing that it's easier in reality (so I have been told?)>Microsoft Flight Simulator is definately NOT a game.>>Bryan's packages for instance, is based on total reality and>if used efficiently produces an immersion that with a small>bit of fantasy can make you feel as though you are really>there! No other additions to *games* are possible.>>No other Game would encourage an individual to convert a>room/garage into a full scale cockpit, to buy hardware to>enhance it or participate with like-minded people willing to>carry out ATC even more efficiently than the real people in>their own time?>>NO, IT CAN NEVER BE REFERRED TO AS A GAME.>>ALWAYS WILL BE A SIMULATION.>>P.S. Clubs and groups all enjoying flightsim are starting all>over the world, certainly in the UK are unique. Do they have>similar facilities for 'Doom' players? ;-):-)Here is an article from LANWAR's Million Man LAN event. Although the name is a bit misleading, there are over 2500 gamers who attend each year to play games like Doom. The pictures speak for themselves.http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/405Here is a Halloween contest where people create complex costumes to look like characters from Blizzard's World of Warcraft:http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/contests/06...e/winners.shtmlHere is someone who has crafted a Guitar Hero controller from a real guitar, with wiring and all that electronics not unlike making a radio stack or panel for your sim.http://toolmonger.com/2006/12/05/how-to-bu...ero-controller/These are just a few examples, but if just how hardcore people are about what they play decides if it's a simulation or game, then we have to call Starcraft and Dance Dance Revolution simulators as well.

Well, Microsoft Games Studio publishes it under the Games for Windows tag, it's sold in Gamestop or in Best Buy in the Computer Games section, and when you install it in Vista it goes under the Games browser.I think Microsoft has made it clear that it's both.

I suspect the only reason this topic could matter is in how the user justifies the pleasure of simulating a world, and devoting time to it.There can be no other significance, defining the name game does nothing except possibly put some users into discomfort that they spend too much time "gaming", while somehow spending lots of time with flight sim is justified because its "simulating", a pursuit more deserving of respect?Bob

What we take for granted in a flight simulator/game such as FSX; is now making it's way to real life MFD's in cockpits of the future!What I'm talking about is simulated mesh topography with airport & navigation database overlays. These are combined with GPS inputs to verify exact locations. The whole concept is to provide a moving 3D picture of the earth in real time in strict IMC conditions. The idea is to avoid the flight into terrain situations that are unfortunately still common, especially concerning missed approaches. These will also incorporate real time weather overlays with satellite up-links, as well as obstacle avoidance, and warning systems to plot the locations of nearby aircraft. Basically, flying an approach in IMC will be like a pleasant clear day on a flight sim screen, depending on the weather of course! The idea is to retain complete situational awareness, should the worst occur.L.Adamson

I don't understand why anyone could be *peeved* by a *game* reference???If you fly'em by the book, ok, it's a simulator-----sort of. If you don't, it's a game. Doesn't really matter which. What really matters is that a lot of folks buy it and enjoy it---- for whatever reason.JIMJAM had it right except he forgot *advanced computer hardware/software puzzel*Scott

I think that answer depends on the person playing it, and not the game. If they are goofing off it is a game. If they are taking it seriously it can easily be a simulator. For me, I do a little goofing off and some crazy stunts. However, Most of the time I am using it as a simulator.

An addiction is what it is, at least if I use the bank account as a measure :)Of course it's a sim. Of course it's a game. There is nothing inconsistent with that. Half dozen of one, 6 of the other.Add a few hundred thousands to this and a divorce, and you get a professional simulator!

It's a GAME!When you use PMDG's and Level-D's addons it becomes a simulator.Case closed, IMHO.

>I suspect the only reason this topic could matter is in how>the user justifies the pleasure of simulating a world, and>devoting time to it.>>There can be no other significance, defining the name game>does nothing except possibly put some users into discomfort>that they spend too much time "gaming", while somehow spending>lots of time with flight sim is justified because its>"simulating", a pursuit more deserving of respect?I think this is key. Seems to me the ego of some is more satisfied in elevating this product above the "game" status. No matter how you view it this product is a piece of entertainment software, and as such it is certainly a game, albeit a Flight Simulation game.You simply cannot strip this product of either the label game, or simulator, as both are one in the same. So enjoy your simulation game, that whats its here for.

I have to agree with that Buck. I now have several hours in a real Level D 737NG/800 and I can tell you that the systems encountered in the PMDG software simulator are spot-on. In my last session in the real Level D sim, I managed a manual engine-out T/O & landing in 900 ft ceilings. The flight instructor said if I were here for the '6 month qual' in the 'horror-box', he would have passed me. So, call it what you want, but I call it a CBT simulator software of the highest caliper.Just my 2 cents. jack