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Guest The Wizard of Oz

Blurries:vocabulary and Type 3 investigation

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I have done some investigation of the reports of the blurries. There is an article here, http://www.fsinsider.com/tips/Pages/default.aspxthat discusses in detail one of the four types of blurries we believe people are seeing. This article serves to present a vocabulary for the blurries ( Type 1 vs Type 2 vs Type 3 vs Type 4 ) so we can all be on the same page, as well as focusing on Type 3 Blurries.Hopefully this will prove valuable, and will let us focus on the Type 1 and Type 2 blurries as real issues needing deeper investigation.

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Great article Phil..explains alot.But GOOD GOD MAN!!!! How long did it take you to produce all those screenshots :-lol Intel E6700 @ 3.8ghz2 gig Corsair Pc2-8500 @ 1066mhzEvga 680i nVidia motherboardEvga 7950GT 512 mb 158.27 Drivers2 74gig WD 10,000 rpm Raptors Raid 0Thermaltake 750watt Toughpower PsuAcer 22" Widescreen LCD

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Thanks Phil,I can just imaging taking all those sceenies and trying to remember/match which ones went with which setting LOL !Now on to Type 2 ... ;)Regards'Garett

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Phooey!!!I cannot get the Blurries-v3.pdf file to load.Will try again tomorrow. Sure hope something developes here as a solution for Ultimate Terrain.Thanks Phil:RTHEdit: Murphy's law is alive and well. The moment after I made this reply, the pdf file loaded fine.Thanks again:RTH

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I will check this out...Hey that looks like Solar's RealAir screenshot hahah!Ok I read it....interesting, but, Most users who report the blurries are moving....that's where the problems really come out.When we post screenshots of the blurries, the shots are taken while moving at X speed. (well most of them are)...I understand there will always be some blurries, but these guys who have uber nice PC's that fly the C172 at 100 kts and the textures aren't sharp within a couple 1000 feet have the right to complain , IMHO.My machine isn't brand new, so I can't complain nearly as much, but there are some major problems with texture loading that still exist.Thanks for the detailed writeup though!

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I can't access the site because it's blocked at work (would have looked at lunchtime before you ask!!). I'll have to wait until tonight unless somebody is willing to produce a quick resume.

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Wow, very cool to see such an extensive article appear! This really shows how much you and Aces are dedicated to FSX! :) BTW Very good idea to establish some common vocabulary. :(>I understand there will always be some blurries, but these>guys who have uber nice PC's that fly the C172 at 100 kts and>the textures aren't sharp within a couple 1000 feet have the>right to complain , IMHO.Well, I'm one of those guys but I won't complain in THIS topic, because the article clearly states it's about Type 3 TODAY, and Phil says "Hopefully this will prove valuable, and will let us focus on the Type 1 and Type 2 blurries as real issues needing deeper investigation. " So what you are talking about isn't adressed in the pdf but surely will be in time to come. I'm glad Phil did his utter best to shed some light on how it all works! Very interesting read!

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Naturally, texture get more blurry in the distance, in particular when viewed at an angle (such as from the cockpit view flying straight and level). The built-in MIP-mapping in FS makes this somewhat worse than it is in first person shooters etc, but I think everyone has learnt to accept that. Using the highest LOD setting, enabling Anisotropic Filtering, and using 0.75x or 0.5x zoom can all help to reduce this problem.The problem is that the "inner circle" of high resolution tiles that is supposed to stay centered under the player aircraft doesn't "keep up" with the aircraft. Normally, this just causes the LOD line to move closer to the viewpoint of the player, but in severe cases causes the whole "high detail circle" to fall behind, so that you have a circle of 1m tiles behind you and 5m or 10m tiles ahead of you. Even in less severe cases where the LOD line is just moved a little closer to the viewer, it's still enough to be very obvious and distracting. If you pause the game for a short time, the textures "catch up", but who wants to pause their sim every five minutes to fly over sharp textures? This is what Aces really needs to investigate, and it's also the issue that got worse after SP1.

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>This is>what Aces really needs to investigate, and it's also the issue>that got worse after SP1.As I just posted in my reaction to ryanbatcund, Aces KNOWS this. Phil SAYS so! The problem is CLEAR, so why post it all over again as if Phil ignores it...?

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Nice read. Much appreciated. At first i was very dissapointed with the SP1, but now after some altering of cfg's like buildings=0(doesent look good anyways with sparse autogen buildings) i can fly smooth in my beloved realair sp-260 with some pretty dense forest and some scenery, 2m resolution, and only in some rare cases the rendering falls behind. Now Sp1 finally feels like a real improvemnet.However, s still would like some work to be done with the groundtexture rendering. But for now, snd when Aces show this kind of dedication, i'm happy.specsp4 2.55ghzRadeon 9800pro764Mb Ram

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The most "frustuming" for some is a blurred state that does not seem to be described. Thats is, when the entire displayed set of textures becomes blurred to a maximum degree. This includes the aircraft textures as well. In my case this event is triggered by local objects in either a static (startup setting) or while in flight approaching a scene. It may recover, or a restart is needed. There may be a solution if the trigger is identified and allowed to be modified or set on/off. It would be interesting to see what happens if the program was blocked from this total blurred state. In-other-words is this a "safety" device or a bug???This has not been as widely commented on, or it has been lumped into blurred states during flight or view changes.Regards,Dick BoleyA PC, an LCD, speakers, CH yoke

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>Naturally, texture get more blurry in the distance, in>particular when viewed at an angle (such as from the cockpit>view flying straight and level). The built-in MIP-mapping in>FS makes this somewhat worse than it is in first person>shooters etc, but I think everyone has learnt to accept that.>Using the highest LOD setting, enabling Anisotropic Filtering,>and using 0.75x or 0.5x zoom can all help to reduce this>problem.>>The problem is that the "inner circle" of high resolution>tiles that is supposed to stay centered under the player>aircraft doesn't "keep up" with the aircraft. Normally, this>just causes the LOD line to move closer to the viewpoint of>the player, but in severe cases causes the whole "high detail>circle" to fall behind, so that you have a circle of 1m tiles>behind you and 5m or 10m tiles ahead of you. >>Even in less severe cases where the LOD line is just moved a>little closer to the viewer, it's still enough to be very>obvious and distracting. If you pause the game for a short>time, the textures "catch up", but who wants to pause their>sim every five minutes to fly over sharp textures? This is>what Aces really needs to investigate, and it's also the issue>that got worse after SP1.Many thanks for that.

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Correct, this article deals with Type 3 blurries. Read the last paragraph of the pdf again; You can tweak this type (3) of blurry or you can ignore it, but that's they way things are in the D3D world. What is more interesting to me however, is the indication that Aces is looking at the type 1 and 2 blurries with some sincerety.

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Oh, I must have missed that part....Then this article isn't for the people who have real blurries...Just the people that think they have them while suspended in air.

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The formation of the categories and the detailed explanation will go a great way in helping us to understand what goes on behind the scenes, as well as facilitate communication in both directions on this hot subject. We appreciate the effort Phil.

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>Oh, I must have missed that part....>>Then this article isn't for the people who have real>blurries...>>Just the people that think they have them while suspended in>air.No, that is completely incorrect. The point being made is that at the most basic level of rendering, there will always be some "blurries" simply because of the mechanics of rendering in 3d space.If this is true even "while suspended in air," why whould it suddenly be any different when actually moving? *:-* The next levels up from this "pre-blurred static image" are what Phil refers to as Type 1 and Type 2, which can - and do - exacerbate the issue.The main point of Phil's extensive explanation is simply this: because of the way the static image is rendered in 3d space, there will always be a certain amount of "bluriness" present. Period. Full Stop. ;)Please folks, let's all use more logic and less rhetoric... :-beerchug

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Looking at the article I understand that some blurries (type 3) are unavoidable. Notting wrong with that but...In all types of blurries (even type 3) you can clearly see the tiles in different level of blurriness. To me this says that the tile rendering system plays a role in the blurry problem. Correct me if I'm wrong but if it was just LOD, distance, filterning, angle and zoom factors we would not be able to spot the different tiles.Other (combat, civil) flightsims have their own blurries but in those I can only spot the tiles by looking for repeating patterns. Its only the FS series where I can see difference in blurry levels and this is not in the detail rings as designed its all over the place.

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I think that some blurred textures, surrounded by clear textures, is due to the angle of a hill's slope and the distance from the aircraft. I find that some hills blur within flat areas while flying low. Also, on my system the textures are less clear while in motion even with 20fps or better. Hit pause and they look better even if they are not blurred. Use top-down and you can only wish they looked that good and they may on better PCs.Regards,Dick BoleyA PC, an LCD, speakers, CH yoke

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>Hey that looks like Solar's RealAir screenshot hahah!It is! Whoohoo I'm famous! lol

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Yes, its possible that location, altitude, and orientation is having an effect. Some blurriness in flight, beyond what I have shown, is still normal due to the way our visual perception works. As you are flying, in addition to the effects I showed in this article, you also have the fact that absolute location and orientation is changing wrt the screen rectangle. And changing at n frames a second. This means where a texel was last frame is different then where it is this frame. This "motion" coupled with our "persistence of vision" does tend towards a less sharp effect. when you stop, both the image and our visual systems' perception of it "snaps in". Normal.Top down is essentially an orthographic projection, different math touches the vertex data which then impacts the screenspace location of the vertices, which then impacts the uv coordinates used to fetch the texels. This has major impact and the result is just different.

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On the issue (or more correct, explanation) of type 3, does the detail1.bmp file still get used to induce noise into tiles?scott s..

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If you set the detail check to on, yes the detail textures are blended in.And I didnt even mention that, but yes that can contribute as well.

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Phil,You have described 4 types of blurries in your article:There are at least four types of blurries going around; let

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Interesting, and first I have heard that TileProxy ( or other photo-scenery ) doesnt catch up.I wonder if that is just a lower mip, and if your video memory is overcommitted.If you reduce global texture resolution and terrain texture resolution, do you get to where it catches up?

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